From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk0-f182.google.com (mail-qk0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4521D3BA8E for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk0-f182.google.com with SMTP id 126-v6so5757931qke.5 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AEATX416LyD4XF93WQWfK19iFI5/lWOIC6EmBLk22rc=; b=SX3vaFZjdPUGTky4lPNZhYM5+UDO69o6O085Cx+o19d5nglAJry5wCSh2ib0M44CqO eJmqbTWH2mYUCqq2CGOYP5+i3aCg85ZyHEj0iSyndlpNX9VHebnZBBl3i5PLaq6Hp60Q HWrKA6L/NDtrl1gq0iaTOHqZ74MmO1cDjb0rnRTrPUVv6nHJO0AUXGkHyr6ZGr2MGzRD CG0iXOC+1ip1v1wmFLv31BNKuR8MKyfX9q/b0/Lu+EtJYO9HbqxKljsZkY7gTuLgTUo/ uaxbclBdGfJWTPyoNQglQt/rPEJEXHPxm6avPzSk+P+wH00fUY6GHZe/beLjL9GXuiPS 8wrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHD0rSWHKqSMhXy1nVUCZKo4b++yU2GIsggJQ6BlV1zHlC5fFS2 zZqKfuZEgigWUKgtWZcs1VIGlgvGjYD0FWMxhYE9/Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcDRntOBvDtT4Iqu1L8ANlA3MBPNS/8xKDTlnbVAyLhgsLMPX50rGYNkd20DdhV56u10nYjBAbWh9jgQWqyMF0= X-Received: by 2002:a37:4653:: with SMTP id t80-v6mr20363880qka.314.1532549881761; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:18:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jim Gettys Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:17:45 -0400 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004d941c0571d893a4" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] So how far behind is the embedded router world, still? X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:18:02 -0000 --0000000000004d941c0571d893a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've surveyed firmware twice; once at the beginning of the bufferbloat effort and most recently again a couple or three years ago. The first time was with 3-4 routers, and the second time 5-6 routers. The typical *minimum* age of any software package inside for the vendors I happened to choose were around 4 years old, on "latest and greatest" routers. I did not see significant change between the two surveys. Also "amusing" (not) were finding things like versions of telnet included that had not had a maintainer for over a decade, and similar disasters. 5-7 is still my guess for most routers sold, on this limited data sets. - Jim On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 2:50 PM Dave Taht wrote: > back in 2011, 2012 jim and I and others looked hard at the kernels and > software being sold then to end-users. > > We concluded that the embedded router world was running 5-7 years > behind linux mainline, sometimes as much as 10, and that the embedded > linux world had been decimated by the great recession causing the > collapse of companies like montavista. > > I recently took apart verizon FIOS's current firmware for one of their > more popular routers. It's still running 2.6.21, which shipped in > june, 2007. Overgeneralizing from this one data point, I am wondering > if the trendline for new routing products tracking current software > has got worse or better? I have generally assumed that "new wifi > features" was a fundamental driver for semi-newer kernel versions in > new products, and not much else. Edgerouters are still 3.10. I know of > more than a few pre-bufferbloat-era things going back even further > than that, but most hackerboards I've played with also don't go back > very far. Odroid C2 was still 3.10 last I looked. > > There are still a few companies alive in this space (openrg being one > that I know nothing about), but... > > -- > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > CEO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-669-226-2619 > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > --0000000000004d941c0571d893a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I&#= 39;ve surveyed firmware twice; once at the beginning of the bufferbloat eff= ort and most recently again a couple or three years ago. The first time was= with 3-4 routers, and the second time 5-6 routers.

The typical *minimum* age of any software packag= e inside for the vendors I happened to choose were around 4 years old, on &= quot;latest and greatest" routers.=C2=A0 I did not see significant cha= nge between the two surveys.=C2=A0 Also "amusing" (not) were find= ing things like versions of telnet included that had not had a maintainer f= or over a decade, and similar disasters.

5-7 is still my guess for most routers sold, on this limite= d data sets.
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- = Jim

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">


On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 2:50 PM Dave Taht= <dave.taht@gmail.com> wro= te:
back in 2011, 2012 jim and I an= d others looked hard at the kernels and
software being sold then to end-users.

We concluded that the embedded router world was running 5-7 years
behind linux mainline, sometimes as much as 10, and that the embedded
linux world had been decimated by the great recession causing the
collapse of companies like montavista.

I recently took apart verizon FIOS's current firmware for one of their<= br> more popular routers. It's still running 2.6.21, which shipped in
june, 2007. Overgeneralizing from this one data point, I am wondering
if the trendline for new routing products tracking current software
has got worse or better? I have generally assumed that "new wifi
features" was a fundamental driver for semi-newer kernel versions in new products, and not much else. Edgerouters are still 3.10. I know of
more than a few pre-bufferbloat-era things going back even further
than that, but most hackerboards I've played with also don't go bac= k
very far. Odroid C2 was still 3.10 last I looked.

There are still a few companies alive in this space (openrg being one
that I know nothing about), but...

--

Dave T=C3=A4ht
CEO, TekLibre, LLC
ht= tp://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-669-226-2619
_______________________________________________
Cerowrt-devel mailing list
Ce= rowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-d= evel
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