From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x130.google.com (mail-lf1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4392F3CB37 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 13:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id bi37so13814546lfb.5 for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 10:54:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xSOPJgsfNQFZE4rSr8jpAeINop9rThRZeCD4bgV7ocU=; b=J86fQwbhblN96bzXRTKSgPQnZ9YxACfag4Q4qa+5Ja8c1UYwnPnkrsWBeLFEb+2Gi0 9eQvVlml1VrSSJO2iKlxFV23FAXOzX3ppVGp4JYrRFJkGalvi5yk9p+GD2Lc16F+M5us TWLoWVp6MQtBzKIr3T2hR/JJYUssZVhNajCXI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xSOPJgsfNQFZE4rSr8jpAeINop9rThRZeCD4bgV7ocU=; b=IxRU+hRq7y0PvEPsDnzzEVtkK/2Yme0ZBBdAUhuYcm6u7uRZ5m/TxG9IgC+Su9ePog cVQ5lTBfu0LAMSLmaTJrE0F9wS25dxHeyHKnKlTH+aRAQSr2qABYV9zHPbp/etpjBROV wGt0mE3e9giQ/Lo7zxWPrfKnW9AA04F+j9rthZHv4PhUZZFy0Pkl51h9Js+wIl+Edx2Q DYHlQh7/u2Ikw6x37JK0q+fRLsN5jJvggJV/zu3y6RaiOq1fi7FrQEAgonn2HqpyXx5j rmLWUpWyD5jYY2DP2D9j6MZeEt1eJxmC6jLjfMThxbVpHqJa748dnNxgFo91yV0gJzN/ IVxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532MLsBhL3LOg2B90Jvs1paiaPodd7ZNkbHjQ+79GZtaeHmOLzFk JOF9La2uHguNv+gSYM+jgNgh0oAjFRShW4JjftlBzA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+Nn51R5wAELI0NX62LB3kdgwclk7VcU8a1j4YV+USHIvK0VRz8q+kWnxqdIraoP+1uBTcPCyhwV62A4P/6e0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1087:: with SMTP id j7mr7718556lfg.345.1639076085582; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 10:54:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5BBAA5F8-3C4B-4022-8D80-D87B6CAAB8EA@gmx.de> <85B1D37A-9C1B-490F-93F6-9B23416B5869@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Luca Muscariello Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:54:34 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] tp-link request for SQM To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d7f53805d2bb230d" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 05:54:47 -0500 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 18:54:49 -0000 --000000000000d7f53805d2bb230d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 19:23 Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Luca, > > > > On Dec 9, 2021, at 18:38, Luca Muscariello wrote= : > > > > Hi Sebastian > > > > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 17:09 Sebastian Moeller wrote: > > Hi Luca > > > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller > wrote: > > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello < > muscariello@ieee.org> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245 > > > >> > > > >> > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Dbbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-a= a04-1849db81d0f5 > > > > > > > > Nice. > > > > > > > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the > same time. > > > > > > > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these > speeds. > > > > > > > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to > determine > > > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not. > > > > > > Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type > reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range o= f > "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world similarly an= d > nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to > matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is will cause > "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known solution against > jitter is additional buffering (large enough to simply even out the unequ= al > jittered packet arrival times) which in turn just increases the "RTT", no= ? > (I guess no game really does this enough, so jitter stays the constant > problem for internet game-play). > > > > > > > > > > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, > Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal > network conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to t= he > gamer. > > > > Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell what I describe > above is pretty universal iff fair "coordination" between different > player's actions is required. How do you conceal issues about causal > ordering of events that ideally are identical from all perspectives? > > > > Not all games use deterministic lockstep because it requires to > compensate latency from the different players. Of course if latency is ze= ro > it is easier. But that assumption or that objective is one of the fallaci= es > of distributed computing. > > > > Predictive lockstep or even rollback netcode are examples where you fix > update accuracy reactively. > > Ah, sure, I was talking core principle not implementation. I full= y > agree that predictive/speculative techniques help to make the causality > problems of different information propagation delays appear less often. I= n > retrospect that is what "conceal network conditions" alstready covered ;) > > > > Beyond specific netcode techniques, some mobile games can give you the > illusion that you're playing PvP while at some point reality is that you > can continue to play almost offline against bots. > > I don't want to sound harsh, but that feels like "cheating". > That's what I was referring to when I wrote that the game studio works on the experience they want to provide. If the game is a competitive game with esport competitions where accuracy is crucial that has implications on the way the netcode is written. If the studio is looking for gamer retention it's important the gamer with little experience is able to learn, get more skilled and have fun along the way before they get to the competitive level. BTW, it is not cheating. It is fishing in some sense. > > > > There are games where physics inaccuracies can be concealed. Physics is > very important for first person shooter games while an ARPG may conceal > inaccuracies in the middle of the mess that is rendered on screen, think = of > League of Legends Wild Rift. > > Ah, okay. Didn't know at all about the last two ;) > > Thanks! > > Regards > Sebastan > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > Sebastian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We had them participating on this list at some point.... > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor > NOT > > > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with > someones > > > >>> with accounts? > > > >>> > > > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156 > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > >>> > > > >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Bloat mailing list > > > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > --000000000000d7f53805d2bb230d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 19:23 Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi Luca,


> On Dec 9, 2021, at 18:38, Luca Muscariello <muscariello@ieee.org<= /a>> wrote:
>
> Hi Sebastian
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 17:09 Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> = wrote:
> Hi Luca
>
> > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello <muscariello@ieee= .org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de= > wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> >
> > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com= > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello <musca= riello@ieee.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245
> > >>
> > >> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Dbbc= c5ef5-e677-4f27-aa04-1849db81d0f5
> > >
> > > Nice.
> > >
> > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down = at the same time.
> > >
> > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at th= ese speeds.
> > >
> > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to= determine
> > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Which is the sane thing to do...= IMHO. For any "twitch"-type reation-time gated gaming all player= s need to be in an acceptable range of "RTTs" to and from the ser= ver so that all perceive the world similarly and nobody has an unfair advan= tage/disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to matter. I would agree that = jitter is nastier in that is will cause "randomish" variations of= the RTT, but then the known solution against jitter is additional bufferin= g (large enough to simply even out the unequal jittered packet arrival time= s) which in turn just increases the "RTT", no? (I guess no game r= eally does this enough, so jitter stays the constant problem for internet g= ame-play).
> > >
> >
> > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM,= Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal n= etwork conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to the = gamer.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Care to elaborate, please? As far as = I can tell what I describe above is pretty universal iff fair "coordin= ation" between different player's actions is required. How do you = conceal issues about causal ordering of events that ideally are identical f= rom all perspectives?
>
> Not all games use deterministic lockstep because it requires to compen= sate latency from the different players. Of course if latency is zero it is= easier. But that assumption or that objective is one of the fallacies of d= istributed computing.
>
> Predictive lockstep or even rollback netcode are examples where you fi= x update=C2=A0 accuracy reactively.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ah, sure, I was talking core principle not impl= ementation. I fully agree that predictive/speculative techniques help to ma= ke the causality problems of different information propagation delays appea= r less often. In retrospect that is what "conceal network conditions&q= uot; alstready covered ;)


> Beyond specific netcode techniques, some mobile games can give you the= illusion that you're playing PvP while at some point reality is that y= ou can continue to play almost offline against bots.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't want to sound harsh, but that feels= like "cheating".
<= br>
That's what I was referring to when I wrote = that the game studio works on the experience they want to provide. If the g= ame is a competitive game with esport competitions where accuracy is crucia= l that has implications on the way the netcode is written.

If the studio is looking for gamer reten= tion it's important the gamer with little experience is able to learn, = get more skilled and have fun along the way before they get to the competit= ive level.

BTW, it is no= t cheating. It is fishing in some sense.=C2=A0

<= /div>

>
> There are games where physics inaccuracies can be concealed. Physics i= s very important for first person shooter games while an ARPG may conceal i= naccuracies in the middle of the mess that is rendered on screen, think of = League of Legends Wild Rift.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ah, okay. Didn't know at all about the last= two ;)

Thanks!

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastan


>
>
>
> Regards
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sebastian
>
>
> >
> >=C2=A0
> >
> > > We had them participating on this list at some point....
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@= gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home r= outer vendor NOT
> > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded = up with someones
> > >>> with accounts?
> > >>>
> > >>> https://co= mmunity.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> > >>> h= ttps://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
> > >>>
> > >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Bloat mailing list
> > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > >>> https://lists.bufferbl= oat.net/listinfo/bloat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> > > https://w= ayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
> > >
> > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > https://lists.bufferbl= oat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel

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