From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 828913B2A4 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 12:38:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id cf39so1319133lfb.8 for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 09:38:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qa1oZLfYT4+K1OGMr6VSSSdJQvmc2dJfUMxLJDwI1No=; b=SI4/Mh7z2WwGyNKnvHOaO4UmmH2vZLYw01wNS6eboqEq51CtE4GrGgXHS2v6ekywTU r1JIfn1Vw0qdxIed47Jy29HkO8y3RPWk6aRcFZJr4SorRknELs0zXo3y7FBaCDAGSsBZ J9s30tGBzaBpjF7GYBf0zyoal7iXWXgcj/FcI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qa1oZLfYT4+K1OGMr6VSSSdJQvmc2dJfUMxLJDwI1No=; b=q2N081VznQQKVgjJw7YTHRHpYA8eLg+PnqC1y8YTF9JP4LCXqe6dGI1JkBchdn11mf BcOeyVnFFTdYcPnHxs+uYiDeWFKggbeZfbzOZvN6JkZJPXhhMPlqTVTl071XB/SMXkPK DCfw9DcJTU5AYbtU3QQKyPdMnY+dMonniDnXHAvehL7XctaGGx8CzpQmO2OdnxUJBkk1 wO78lh/aE+P1qmEOCgASKPAv6i6HpP2Q1u6U4MNbOw5UqZWVLcqYq7zBko4yWPl+J8dS UwgWTATVX01AUZz+qDMLf3vcb8AY3VXyHR3SmD8KL+3a0Gcz8d8VyKVKYNM9l9UWFtwp lKgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Wyh2xi3TKAgUT3hrUhOlF/gKE8M90oCwZcejwybE3vIx5dtGu +MMiqnuMpBeDiDbZC8hXabe14S9/SRPpfLzNuJ0bTQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwr0KpKvKxMY0H+h0kjAngHrw/SuP5a7/u2jBtj104ydQO/gNuRND6+TqFkyUe7tSiuJuJ/5qp78cP6HaUGNBg= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:498f:: with SMTP id f15mr7492059lfl.662.1639071516099; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 09:38:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5BBAA5F8-3C4B-4022-8D80-D87B6CAAB8EA@gmx.de> <85B1D37A-9C1B-490F-93F6-9B23416B5869@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <85B1D37A-9C1B-490F-93F6-9B23416B5869@gmx.de> From: Luca Muscariello Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 18:38:24 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] tp-link request for SQM To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007b09dd05d2ba130d" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 05:54:47 -0500 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 17:38:37 -0000 --0000000000007b09dd05d2ba130d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sebastian On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 17:09 Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Luca > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello wrote= : > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller > wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello > wrote: > > >> > > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245 > > >> > > >> > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Dbbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-a= a04-1849db81d0f5 > > > > > > Nice. > > > > > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the > same time. > > > > > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these speed= s. > > > > > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to determin= e > > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not. > > > > Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type > reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range o= f > "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world similarly an= d > nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to > matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is will cause > "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known solution against > jitter is additional buffering (large enough to simply even out the unequ= al > jittered packet arrival times) which in turn just increases the "RTT", no= ? > (I guess no game really does this enough, so jitter stays the constant > problem for internet game-play). > > > > > > > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, > Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal > network conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to t= he > gamer. > > Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell what I describe > above is pretty universal iff fair "coordination" between different > player's actions is required. How do you conceal issues about causal > ordering of events that ideally are identical from all perspectives? Not all games use deterministic lockstep because it requires to compensate latency from the different players. Of course if latency is zero it is easier. But that assumption or that objective is one of the fallacies of distributed computing. Predictive lockstep or even rollback netcode are examples where you fix update accuracy reactively. Beyond specific netcode techniques, some mobile games can give you the illusion that you're playing PvP while at some point reality is that you can continue to play almost offline against bots. There are games where physics inaccuracies can be concealed. Physics is very important for first person shooter games while an ARPG may conceal inaccuracies in the middle of the mess that is rendered on screen, think of League of Legends Wild Rift. > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > > > > > > > > We had them participating on this list at some point.... > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht wrote= : > > >>> > > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor NO= T > > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with someone= s > > >>> with accounts? > > >>> > > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >>> > > >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Bloat mailing list > > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > --0000000000007b09dd05d2ba130d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sebastian

On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 17:09 Sebastian Moell= er <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
= Hi Luca

> On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello <muscariell= o@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@= gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
>
> > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gma= il.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello <= muscariello@ieee.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245
> >>
> >> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id= =3Dbbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-aa04-1849db81d0f5
> >
> > Nice.
> >
> > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at th= e same time.
> >
> > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these s= peeds.
> >
> > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to dete= rmine
> > if the link is suitable for gaming or not.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO= . For any "twitch"-type reation-time gated gaming all players nee= d to be in an acceptable range of "RTTs" to and from the server s= o that all perceive the world similarly and nobody has an unfair advantage/= disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to matter. I would agree that jitte= r is nastier in that is will cause "randomish" variations of the = RTT, but then the known solution against jitter is additional buffering (la= rge enough to simply even out the unequal jittered packet arrival times) wh= ich in turn just increases the "RTT", no? (I guess no game really= does this enough, so jitter stays the constant problem for internet game-p= lay).
> >
>
> Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, Crit= ical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal networ= k conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to the gamer= .

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell= what I describe above is pretty universal iff fair "coordination"= ; between different player's actions is required. How do you conceal is= sues about causal ordering of events that ideally are identical from all pe= rspectives?

Not all games use deterministic lockstep because it requires to comp= ensate latency from the different players. Of course if latency is zero it = is easier. But that assumption or that objective is one of the fallacies of= distributed computing.=C2=A0

Predictive lockstep or even rollback netcode are examples where you f= ix update=C2=A0 accuracy reactively.=C2=A0

Beyond specific netcode techniques, some mobile games ca= n give you the illusion that you're playing PvP while at some point rea= lity is that you can continue to play almost offline against bots.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

There are games wher= e physics inaccuracies can be concealed. Physics is very important for firs= t person shooter games while an ARPG may conceal inaccuracies in the middle= of the mess that is rendered on screen, think of League of Legends Wild Ri= ft.=C2=A0



Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian


>
>=C2=A0
>
> > We had them participating on this list at some point....
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht <dave= .taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router= vendor NOT
> >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up wi= th someones
> >>> with accounts?
> >>>
> >>> http= s://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org<= br> > >>>
> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bloat mailing list
> >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>> https://lists.bu= fferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> > htt= ps://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
> >
> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bu= fferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel

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