From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24D053CB38 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id ec55so4529448edb.1 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:21:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bGEvijCXmKkA+QtuxohRV+BUYl2HNDPJVc9k2e43QfM=; b=NuyseGXKGYcthHAYgEx54MGPW5ciqWanm/jBsMEG5HQuHpbwIdSCMrjKJg1siGYC2A zbaiUnVb6tw17aBUPqTh0BbReIf1JVTP/f1QLUtU3i6NRVbxszR81s5ZuH9K4GqQNBB7 2sVZY9q6Tzxk3v9wmmmyWBMiicWIqz0fzNgCk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bGEvijCXmKkA+QtuxohRV+BUYl2HNDPJVc9k2e43QfM=; b=mD3b7GxInC7/K/zmRhpUitTuJqJAJDXXWn5xN8qTbZW9UKCmSN9OUOvT9fJS+BLoLv nsXZiCl6E/9lirGXeBLc+WGNoRstTW9MNSIn1MdoixrIdfK7hhvHpBXqU048Vr3+NSS5 vBkWrKS1xcHqCoomgWbTaSDntBTjEJoUAwEPhJgu8PQyUJCFDesSr1pkv7TlJqGcafOY OaL2AqpfF2ADrFmpwUaFoREjFvP8mptPVmtq4Z0J1vspYkLd1WfQTR4wRx4jHpUON9lG ZYByt6ZmAwyhC6KoHxW4xZ2KDd/RetAT9g03szKOZpobt6gY9zEy6q0N/aqDfoca4tCv Pqng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5326/MayaJjxyrHUX1cZekpdWcCMJigwRx/e1zBLevBONYYBAixB m1f0h5njUJZNTH8HYHhnMH93YLqEtcg0Rr0VOmhmNgYyxlGZxd+yJcVGHc4R1okmXra7epWb0iX UuoaEBY/yvuvzThGT7PkebRfnOz9rP9QvjmbeKnYz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynLxI5JmU3j2960dFn7dThXbyvPJd2z7p2DtK6xulGRR3T8z0cY1UGNIB8qSNFKbwl4hj6Hq6MGrNjJzSWAJY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:14c7:: with SMTP id f7mr167995edx.84.1626114097023; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:21:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <1625773080.94974089@apps.rackspace.com> <1625859083.09751240@apps.rackspace.com> <1626111630.69692379@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1626111630.69692379@apps.rackspace.com> From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:21:26 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point To: "David P. Reed" Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , Luca Muscariello , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Leonard Kleinrock , "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "codel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , cerowrt-devel , bloat , Ben Greear Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000023bbb905c6f13189" X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 18:21:38 -0000 --00000000000023bbb905c6f13189 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ea5e705c6f131fb" --0000000000001ea5e705c6f131fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" iperf 2 supports OWD and gives full histograms for TCP write to read, TCP connect times, latency of packets (with UDP), latency of "frames" with simulated video traffic (TCP and UDP), xfer times of bursts with low duty cycle traffic, and TCP RTT (sampling based.) It also has support for sampling (per interval reports) down to 100 usecs if configured with --enable-fastsampling, otherwise the fastest sampling is 5 ms. We've released all this as open source. OWD only works if the end realtime clocks are synchronized using a "machine level" protocol such as IEEE 1588 or PTP. Sadly, *most data centers don't provide sufficient level of clock accuracy and the GPS pulse per second * to colo and vm customers. https://iperf2.sourceforge.io/iperf-manpage.html Bob On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 10:40 AM David P. Reed wrote: > > On Monday, July 12, 2021 9:46am, "Livingood, Jason" < > Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> said: > > > I think latency/delay is becoming seen to be as important certainly, if > not a more direct proxy for end user QoE. This is all still evolving and I > have to say is a super interesting & fun thing to work on. :-) > > If I could manage to sell one idea to the management hierarchy of > communications industry CEOs (operators, vendors, ...) it is this one: > > "It's the end-to-end latency, stupid!" > > And I mean, by end-to-end, latency to complete a task at a relevant layer > of abstraction. > > At the link level, it's packet send to packet receive completion. > > But at the transport level including retransmission buffers, it's datagram > (or message) origination until the acknowledgement arrives for that message > being delivered after whatever number of retransmissions, freeing the > retransmission buffer. > > At the WWW level, it's mouse click to display update corresponding to > completion of the request. > > What should be noted is that lower level latencies don't directly predict > the magnitude of higher-level latencies. But longer lower level latencies > almost always amplfify higher level latencies. Often non-linearly. > > Throughput is very, very weakly related to these latencies, in contrast. > > The amplification process has to do with the presence of queueing. > Queueing is ALWAYS bad for latency, and throughput only helps if it is in > exactly the right place (the so-called input queue of the bottleneck > process, which is often a link, but not always). > > Can we get that slogan into Harvard Business Review? Can we get it taught > in Managerial Accounting at HBS? (which does address logistics/supply chain > queueing). > > > > > > > -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000001ea5e705c6f131fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
iperf 2 supports OWD and gives full histograms for TCP wri= te to read, TCP connect times, latency of packets (with UDP), latency of &q= uot;frames" with simulated=C2=A0video=C2=A0traffic (TCP and UDP), xfer= times of bursts with low duty cycle traffic, and TCP RTT (sampling based.)= It also has support for sampling (per interval reports) down to 100 usecs = if configured with --enable-fastsampling, otherwise the fastest sampling is= 5 ms. We've released all this as open source.

OWD only works if= the end realtime clocks are synchronized using a "machine level"= protocol such as IEEE 1588 or PTP. Sadly, *most data centers don't pro= vide sufficient level of clock accuracy and the GPS pulse per second * to c= olo and vm customers.

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 10:40 AM David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
On Monday, July 12, 2021 9:46am, "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@c= omcast.com> said:

> I think latency/delay is becoming seen to be as important certainly, i= f not a more direct proxy for end user QoE. This is all still evolving and = I have to say is a super interesting & fun thing to work on. :-)
=C2=A0
If I could manage to sell one idea to the management hierarchy of communica= tions industry CEOs (operators, vendors, ...) it is this one:

"It's the end-to-end latency, stupid!"

And I mean, by end-to-end, latency to complete a task at a relevant layer o= f abstraction.

At the link level, it's packet send to packet receive completion.

But at the transport level including retransmission buffers, it's datag= ram (or message) origination until the acknowledgement arrives for that mes= sage being delivered after whatever number of retransmissions, freeing the = retransmission buffer.

At the WWW level, it's mouse click to display update corresponding to c= ompletion of the request.

What should be noted is that lower level latencies don't directly predi= ct the magnitude of higher-level latencies. But longer lower level latencie= s almost always amplfify higher level latencies. Often non-linearly.

Throughput is very, very weakly related to these latencies, in contrast.
The amplification process has to do with the presence of queueing. Queueing= is ALWAYS bad for latency, and throughput only helps if it is in exactly t= he right place (the so-called input queue of the bottleneck process, which = is often a link, but not always).

Can we get that slogan into Harvard Business Review? Can we get it taught i= n Managerial Accounting at HBS? (which does address logistics/supply chain = queueing).
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0


This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. 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