From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EBBA3CB5B for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 18:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id t3so608160edt.12 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 15:05:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=B1WZ2wzf8hKx1L/aoygCX3WLBwYOvXh4u3/dLBvoeB4=; b=RnRpLjTax2I3F3EVPUMOO1MMiFR2n4ktlUdxHz0chOsDALzO5kLFCfWWBZZ3S2vENY NKBp1tblS4FCC8poGQN4Da1OPHmCPqYP8J/2XeAFyXYxK9rNQxF8pWq11Fg24eRHwtY7 +a1lLWk/Jt2tHmIM/P7gz8NYsEZt13pQOwlNc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=B1WZ2wzf8hKx1L/aoygCX3WLBwYOvXh4u3/dLBvoeB4=; b=ZA4ILy7q9zgy4oQWB7lgiPSsjrOhZGciYo/h17TtTKCj1dcpB1Nb3s9LWEfKaS9VQ9 EWtseOz4OFBm6PqXER1xQcnWXRXwx6UhFLxiQF6eHgfTisl0HmIEgtm7jhK/ZofvCFdX JOxSIYY9A/oHZSuidasAFL/0NP6t/8KMs9x9xUc51q1qb/x0Lm/+NEEZMV9DNsuYhrMz mm4w5dY786CGeSwCxlFbxvFG5iChmC1eChDN+rokYkhIVVuIsaXrS9xz/pk3Ejf+Pfkr qM79C8nChjN5sfXwfvA6afXq3gWBasLCndIH8QEdHSTRGLQ/VbupyOaNruCi7c5sZ1Em 4XOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533dHIhSMrtZF3fc4bdLgzYLsFou3dOaXGBw88NmL4fvEVCR7UDy IuqX8aZzzDK6dps1JeAtpxC0xgRXvckzNEZ37RsZHgzfjPgsaI8FWA5R7whE1jV3M4fUtH3eQTR +6mnEmPeV91CoO8FvSQgFTljR2qYvueYtAHrFMLT2 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw0JEplJpQPderN4/Zs8rqn/G4lzGOo2r5gDGi6TwMA7RbxUfoa8Tj2/UM+hxhC9jipShl0W9KBmkSPohXZ1I8= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d4d9:: with SMTP id t25mr8593988edr.370.1625609122005; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 15:05:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <3acebcdb-b422-5a4b-cad2-d50f71de357e@candelatech.com> In-Reply-To: <3acebcdb-b422-5a4b-cad2-d50f71de357e@candelatech.com> From: Bob McMahon Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 15:05:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board To: Ben Greear Cc: Dave Taht , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Make-Wifi-fast , "David P. Reed" , Cake List , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000047bfef05c67b9e04" X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2021 22:05:23 -0000 --00000000000047bfef05c67b9e04 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000043443905c67b9e5f" --00000000000043443905c67b9e5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I should have been more clear. Not a fixed butler matrix but a device with solid state, programmable, phase shifters, 0 - 360 degrees. It's a way to create multiple phy channels and affect and vary the off diagonal elements of a MIMO H-matrix using conducted parts. Then automation software can have more robust RF MIMO test scenarios that are reproducible. https://web.stanford.edu/~dntse/Chapters_PDF/Fundamentals_Wireless_Communic= ation_chapter7.pdf Bob On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 2:24 PM Ben Greear wrote: > We tried adding in an external butler matrix in the past, but could not > notice any useful difference. Possibly > we didn't have the right use case. > > Typically we are competitive on price for full testing solutions, but you > can get stand-alone attenuators > cheaper from specialized vendors. Happy to discuss pricing offlist if yo= u > wish. > > Thanks, > Ben > > On 7/6/21 1:43 PM, Bob McMahon wrote: > > The four part attenuator part would be more interesting to me if it als= o > had a solid state phase shifters. This allows for testing 2x2 MIMO testi= ng > per > > affecting the spatial stream eigen vectors/values. > > > > Bob > > > > PS. The price per port isn't competitive. Probably a good idea to surve= y > the market competition. > > > > On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 6:46 AM Ben Greear > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I am interested to hear wish lists for network testing features. W= e > make test equipment, supporting lots > > of wifi stations and a distributed architecture, with built-in udp, > tcp, ipv6, http, ... protocols, > > and open to creating/improving some of our automated tests. > > > > I know Dave has some test scripts already, so I'm not necessarily > looking to reimplement that, > > but more fishing for other/new ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > Ben > > > > On 7/2/21 4:28 PM, Bob McMahon wrote: > > > I think we need the language of math here. It seems like the > network power metric, introduced by Kleinrock and Jaffe in the late 70s, = is > something useful. > > > Effective end/end queue depths per Little's law also seems > useful. Both are available in iperf 2 from a test perspective. Repurposin= g > test techniques to > > actual > > > traffic could be useful. Hence the question around what exact > telemetry is useful to apps making socket write() and read() calls. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:07 AM Dave Taht dave.taht@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > > > > > In terms of trying to find "Quality" I have tried to > encourage folk to > > > both read "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"[0], an= d > Deming's > > > work on "total quality management". > > > > > > My own slice at this network, computer and lifestyle "issue" > is aiming > > > for "imperceptible latency" in all things. [1]. There's a lo= t > of > > > fallout from that in terms of not just addressing queuing > delay, but > > > caching, prefetching, and learning more about what a user > really needs > > > (as opposed to wants) to know via intelligent agents. > > > > > > [0] If you want to get depressed, read Pirsig's successor to > "zen...", > > > lila, which is in part about what happens when an engineer > hits an > > > insoluble problem. > > > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/ < > https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed < > dpreed@deepplum.com dpreed@deepplum.com > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, nice that the folks doing the conference are > willing to consider that quality of user experience has little to do with > signalling rate at the > > > physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "networ= k > quality" suggests that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet > isn't the > > hardware or > > > the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the > future, and the fact that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this > conference will > > likely fall > > > into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing fo= r > some imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably neve= r > be what users > > > actually will do given the chance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the > original Internet protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special > tricks to optimize ASR33 > > > logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka > remote login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different > time-sharing > > systems, and > > > "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then > trying to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer= , > because someone > > > thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant application. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be > "provided" by "the network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argume= nt > in system design". > > > Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. > If you want to talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the > users at all > > times, > > > now and into the future, and that's something you can't do i= f > you don't bother to include current and future users talking about what > they might > > expect to > > > experience that they don't experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically > involved "network experts" saying that the network was the place to "solv= e" > such issues as > > quality, > > > so applications could avoid having to solve such issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't > "solve" such issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables > different uses to > > > *cooperate* in some way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than > queueing them, and why diffserv cannot work. > > > > > > > > (I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, > ALL of diffserv attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific > metrics, but > > never, ever > > > explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. > what the IP layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another > violation of the > > > so-called end-to-end principle). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Networks are about getting packets from here to there, > multiplexing the underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole > different thing. > > Quality can > > > be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying > network provides some kind of thing that actually creates a way for > end-to-end applications to > > > affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly > getting "telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on > with the other > > > end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't > waste your time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" < > dave.taht@gmail.com dave.taht@gmail.com > > >> said: > > > > > > > > > The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, > finally, we can > > > > > move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past > endless, blind > > > > > repetitions of speedtest. > > > > > > > > > > For complete details, please see: > > > > > > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/ < > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/> > > > > > > > > > > Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE > (Anywhere On Earth) > > > > > Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021 > > > > > > > > > > Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread > over three days: > > > > > > > > > > 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021 > > > > > 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021 > > > > > 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021 > > > > > > > > > > Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer > Shapira > > > > > > > > > > The Program Committee members: > > > > > > > > > > Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart > Cheshire, Sam > > > > > Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke > Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff > > > > > Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja > Kuehlewind, > > > > > Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen > Nichols, > > > > > Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith > Winstein. > > > > > > > > > > Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop-pc@iab.or= g > > > network-quality-workshop-pc@iab.org>>. > > > > > > > > > > Position papers from academia, industry, the open sourc= e > community and > > > > > others that focus on measurements, experiences, > observations and > > > > > advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect > experience > > > > > based on deployed services are especially welcome. The > organizers > > > > > understand that specific actions taken by operators are > unlikely to be > > > > > discussed in detail, so papers discussing general > categories of > > > > > actions and issues without naming specific technologies= , > products, or > > > > > other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers > should not focus > > > > > on specific protocol solutions. > > > > > > > > > > The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing > to attend > > > > > should submit a position paper to the address above; it > may take the > > > > > form of an Internet-Draft. > > > > > > > > > > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be > published on the > > > > > workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to > invite based on > > > > > the submissions received. Sessions will be organized > according to > > > > > content, and not every accepted submission or invited > attendee will > > > > > have an opportunity to present as the intent is to > foster discussion > > > > > and not simply to have a sequence of presentations. > > > > > > > > > > Position papers from those not planning to attend the > virtual sessions > > > > > themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will > be published > > > > > afterwards. > > > > > > > > > > Overview: > > > > > > > > > > "We believe that one of the major factors behind this > lack of progress > > > > > is the popular perception that throughput is the often > sole measure of > > > > > the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow > focus, people > > > > > don=E2=80=99t consider questions such as: > > > > > > > > > > What is the latency under typical working conditions? > > > > > How reliable is the connectivity across longer time > periods? > > > > > Does the network allow the use of a broad range of > protocols? > > > > > What services can be run by clients of the network? > > > > > What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, > and are there firewalls? > > > > > What security mechanisms are available for local > services, such as DNS? > > > > > To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, > integrity and > > > > > authenticity of user communications guarded? > > > > > > > > > > Improving these aspects of network quality will likely > depend on > > > > > measurement and exposing metrics to all involved > parties, including to > > > > > end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and > exposure of the > > > > > right metrics will allow service providers and network > operators to > > > > > focus on the aspects that impacts the users=E2=80=99 ex= perience > most and at > > > > > the same time empowers users to choose the Internet > service that will > > > > > give them the best experience." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Latest Podcast: > > > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ > > < > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/= > > > > > > > > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel < > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Latest Podcast: > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ > > > > > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > > > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast < > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast> > > > > > > > > > This electronic communication and the information and any files > transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended > solely for the > > use of > > > the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain > information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privac= y > laws, or > > otherwise > > > restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the > intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to > the intended > > recipient, > > > you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, > dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictl= y > prohibited. If you > > > received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the > sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ben Greear >> > > Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com > > > > > > This electronic communication and the information and any files > transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended > solely for the use of > > the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain > information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privac= y > laws, or otherwise > > restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the > intended recipient, > > you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, > dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictl= y > prohibited. If you > > received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, > delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. > > > -- > Ben Greear > Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com > > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --00000000000043443905c67b9e5f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry, I should have=C2=A0been more clear. Not a fixed but= ler matrix but a device with solid state, programmable, phase shifters, 0 -= 360 degrees. It's a way to create multiple phy channels and affect and= vary the off diagonal elements of a MIMO H-matrix using conducted parts. T= hen automation=C2=A0software can have more robust=C2=A0RF MIMO test scenari= os that are reproducible.

https://web= .stanford.edu/~dntse/Chapters_PDF/Fundamentals_Wireless_Communication_chapt= er7.pdf

Bob

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 2:24 PM Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.c= om> wrote:
greearb@candelatech.com <mailto= :greearb@cande= latech.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am interested to hear wish lists for network test= ing features.=C2=A0 We make test equipment, supporting lots
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of wifi stations and a distributed architecture, wi= th built-in udp, tcp, ipv6, http, ... protocols,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and open to creating/improving some of our automate= d tests.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I know Dave has some test scripts already, so I'= ;m not necessarily looking to reimplement that,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0but more fishing for other/new ideas.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ben
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 7/2/21 4:28 PM, Bob McMahon wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I think we need the language=C2=A0of math her= e. It seems like the network power metric, introduced by Kleinrock and=C2= =A0Jaffe in the late 70s, is something useful.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Effective end/end queue depths per Little'= ;s law also seems useful. Both are available in iperf 2 from a test perspec= tive. Repurposing test techniques to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actual
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > traffic could be useful. Hence=C2=A0the quest= ion around what exact telemetry is useful to apps making socket write() and= read() calls.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Bob
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:07 AM Dave Taht <= ;dave.taht@gmail.c= om <mailto:= dave.taht@gmail.com> <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>>> w= rote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In terms of trying to find= "Quality" I have tried to encourage folk to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0both read "zen and th= e art of motorcycle maintenance"[0], and Deming's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0work on "total qualit= y management".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My own slice at this netwo= rk, computer and lifestyle "issue" is aiming
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for "imperceptible la= tency" in all things. [1]. There's a lot of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fallout from that in terms= of not just addressing queuing delay, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0caching, prefetching, and = learning more about what a user really needs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(as opposed to wants) to k= now via intelligent agents.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[0] If you want to get dep= ressed, read Pirsig's successor to "zen...",
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lila, which is in part abo= ut what happens when an engineer hits an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0insoluble problem.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/ <https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/><= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:1= 6 PM David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com <mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com> <mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com>>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Well, nice that the = folks doing the conference=C2=A0 are willing to consider that quality of us= er experience has little to do with signalling rate at the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0physical layer or throughp= ut of FTP transfers.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > But honestly, the fa= ct that they call the problem "network quality" suggests that the= y REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet isn't the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hardware or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the routers or even the ro= uting algorithms *to its users*.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > By ignoring the dive= rsity of applications now and in the future, and the fact that we DON'T= KNOW what will be coming up, this conference will
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0likely fall
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0into the usual trap that n= et-heads fall into - optimizing for some imaginary reality that doesn't= exist, and in fact will probably never be what users
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actually will do given the= chance.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I saw this issue in = 1976 in the group developing the original Internet protocols - a desire to = put *into the network* special tricks to optimize ASR33
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0logins to remote computers= from terminal concentrators (aka remote login), bulk file transfers betwee= n file systems on different time-sharing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0systems, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"sessions" (virt= ual circuits) that required logins. And then trying to exploit underlying &= quot;multicast" by building it into the IP layer, because someone
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thought that TV broadcast = would be the dominant application.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Frankly, to think of= "quality" as something that can be "provided" by "= ;the network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in = system design".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Quality is not a property = defined or created by The Network. If you want to talk about Quality, you n= eed to talk about users - all the users at all
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0times,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0now and into the future, a= nd that's something you can't do if you don't bother to include= current and future users talking about what they might
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expect to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experience that they don&#= 39;t experience.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There was much fight= ing back in 1976 that basically involved "network experts" saying= that the network was the place to "solve" such issues as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0quality,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so applications could avoi= d having to solve such issues.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > What some of us mana= ged to do was to argue that you can't "solve" such issues. Al= l you can do is provide a framework that enables different uses to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*cooperate* in some way. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Which is why the Int= ernet drops packets rather than queueing them, and why diffserv cannot work= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (I know the latter i= s conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of diffserv attempts to talk about= end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0never, ever
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explains what the diffserv= control points actually do w.r.t. what the IP layer can actually control. = So it is meaningless - another violation of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so-called end-to-end princ= iple).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Networks are about g= etting packets from here to there, multiplexing the underlying resources. T= hat's it. Quality is a whole different thing.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Quality can
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be improved by end-to-end = approaches, if the underlying network provides some kind of thing that actu= ally creates a way for end-to-end applications to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0affect queueing and routin= g decisions, and more importantly getting "telemetry" from the ne= twork regarding what is actually going on with the other
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0end-to-end users sharing t= he infrastructure.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This conference won&= #39;t talk about it this way. So don't waste your time.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Wednesday, June 3= 0, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> <ma= ilto:dave.taht@gma= il.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>>> said:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > The program com= mittee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally, we can
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > move the bar fo= r the internet's quality metrics past endless, blind
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > repetitions of = speedtest.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > For complete de= tails, please see:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/<= /a> <https://www.iab.org/activities/work= shops/network-quality/>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Submissions Due= : Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere On Earth)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Invitations Iss= ued by: Monday 16th August 2021
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Workshop Date: = This will be a virtual workshop, spread over three days:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > 1400-1800 UTC T= ue 14th September 2021
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > 1400-1800 UTC W= ed 15th September 2021
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > 1400-1800 UTC T= hu 16th September 2021
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Workshop co-cha= irs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > The Program Com= mittee members:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Jari Arkko, Oli= vier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, Sam
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Crowford, Nick = Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Huston, Cullen = Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja Kuehlewind,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Jason Livingood= , Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Christoph Paasc= h, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Send Submission= s to: network-quality-workshop-pc@iab.org <mailto:network-quality-worksh= op-pc@iab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:network-quality-workshop-pc@iab.org &l= t;mailto:network-quality-workshop-pc@iab.org>>.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Position papers= from academia, industry, the open source community and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > others that foc= us on measurements, experiences, observations and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > advice for the = future are welcome. Papers that reflect experience
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > based on deploy= ed services are especially welcome. The organizers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > understand that= specific actions taken by operators are unlikely to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > discussed in de= tail, so papers discussing general categories of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > actions and iss= ues without naming specific technologies, products, or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > other players i= n the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not focus
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > on specific pro= tocol solutions.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > The workshop wi= ll be by invitation only. Those wishing to attend
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > should submit a= position paper to the address above; it may take the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > form of an Inte= rnet-Draft.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > All inputs subm= itted and considered relevant will be published on the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > workshop websit= e. The organisers will decide whom to invite based on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > the submissions= received. Sessions will be organized according to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > content, and no= t every accepted submission or invited attendee will
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > have an opportu= nity to present as the intent is to foster discussion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > and not simply = to have a sequence of presentations.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Position papers= from those not planning to attend the virtual sessions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > themselves are = also encouraged. A workshop report will be published
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > afterwards.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Overview:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > "We believ= e that one of the major factors behind this lack of progress
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > is the popular = perception that throughput is the often sole measure of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > the quality of = Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus, people
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > don=E2=80=99t c= onsider questions such as:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > What is the lat= ency under typical working conditions?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > How reliable is= the connectivity across longer time periods?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Does the networ= k allow the use of a broad range of protocols?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > What services c= an be run by clients of the network?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > What kind of IP= v4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are there firewalls?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > What security m= echanisms are available for local services, such as DNS?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > To what degree = are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > authenticity of= user communications guarded?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Improving these= aspects of network quality will likely depend on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > measurement and= exposing metrics to all involved parties, including to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > end users in a = meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > right metrics w= ill allow service providers and network operators to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > focus on the as= pects that impacts the users=E2=80=99 experience most and at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > the same time e= mpowers users to choose the Internet service that will
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > give them the b= est experience."
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Latest Podcast:=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:= li:activity:6791014284936785920/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/<= /a>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Dave T=C3=A4ht = CTO, TekLibre, LLC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > _______________= ________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Cerowrt-devel m= ailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Cerowrt-devel@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>= <mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>= ;>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-dev= el>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Latest Podcast:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920= / <https://www.linke= din.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLib= re, LLC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__________________________= _____________________
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com <mailto:greearb@candelatech.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.co= m
>
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--
Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>
Candela Technologies Inc=C2=A0 http://www.candelatech.com


This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. 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