From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x635.google.com (mail-ej1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2913B3B2A4 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 12:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x635.google.com with SMTP id o5so37146758ejy.2 for ; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 09:01:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iBNsOQHqcgilpMz63u9l58kTZUTx/1N1lXWwnxAI+Jw=; b=ZO3dv5o8lW4nTuI5w0AseUDeRhXpM9EDErR96TRRtaovqsSEUwxzneYzuA6LVlcxax pyS40aQDuxIKFf6JLeRa6APa3Urmt9f3Cw1JytcE7c60RKZSaZxf220gc3xzpq/EcHTb F1vc4DNKNxEbzfNx9GpDx7qhppx5Zgs4OmAJg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iBNsOQHqcgilpMz63u9l58kTZUTx/1N1lXWwnxAI+Jw=; b=YAEB1cf1t+yTvP6XcGN1mwJlBXaHniYgCCcFM3MyCjGXiTWWlGSHXSzTbEjk7lY7xT eY/yZu4cFHmOXyrH9GiPRHp3VI4K4j5HDkqM+YS0mZGm4yXhISKizt3zPCPrmjuCr2eC HANXwkeKwkynzn18KIGTO+0gxQO8B9uVe6DBiZFKpkkgmPWpSDnFKavPTERwwbhoBzF8 VCrrgkuVP5IBInA/bO9HTYitukq/1EtfdSWwKH0qR2IpcCRH3NvhWYTPdDZXtUnXMbou fotxOoZW36IVBfqYHImpRRdSADnVESzWZoGbbtnqZMPBzreokNE5E6yhMGwYU42Nc5hJ 25tA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ba0jUchF6Eq65tCpXtLAXKEuGx6gnTItZZ5Mgv80vAunNfmEh PYLcs1CANdK3ZeJrw9UL+J5Vhgh6DBlVQIwQ470XAKf3apVss9WaCOIt5L4vPnnaEdExfpANMhJ pEzTOMcE8ofD3yIcYr5wGm5jVW0PoQEaZYszF52Dw X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwcDj0iVl7bByGnJ8NcmqnT/ud3mouS4JdD/ad1TDnUfl1Xd//V4rnvsmMP4ZS1Zt0xlYeSd16UpeWy4ROv0tg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:a04f:: with SMTP id bg15mr21718333ejb.417.1628006511930; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 09:01:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <1625773080.94974089@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 09:01:41 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board To: David Lang Cc: Ben Greear , Luca Muscariello , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Leonard Kleinrock , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000dcdbec05c8a9cd1e" X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:01:53 -0000 --000000000000dcdbec05c8a9cd1e Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d6469305c8a9cda4" --000000000000d6469305c8a9cda4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Another thing to keep in mind is we're using a poor man's version of emulating "passive channels" so the device transmit powers can provide power asymmetry. The distance matrix is about the h-matrices (as shown early in the slides.) Even with that though, the h-matrix elements aren't likely symmetric but it's a reasonable starting point to assume they are. Also being able to switch them in near realtime allows for some forms of transmit and receive asymmetry in the emulated channels as well. Bob On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 9:44 PM David Lang wrote: > I agree that we don't want to make perfect the enemy of better. > > A lot of the issues I'm calling out can be simulated/enhanced with > different > power levels. > > over wifi distances, I don't think time delays are going to be noticable > (we're > talking 10s to low 100s of feet, not miles) > > David Lang > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote: > > > fair enough, but for this "RF emulator device" being able to support > > distance matrices, even hollow symmetric ones, is much better than what's > > typically done. The variable solid state phase shifters are 0-360 so > don't > > provide real time delays either. > > > > This is another "something is better than nothing" type proposal. I think > > it can be deployed at a relatively low cost which allows for more > > standardized, automated test rigs and much less human interactions and > > human errors. > > > > Bob > > > > On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 9:30 PM David Lang wrote: > > > >> symmetry is not always (or usually) true. stations are commonly heard at > >> much > >> larger distances than they can talk, mobile devices have much less > >> transmit > >> power (becuase they are operating on batteries) than fixed stations, and > >> when > >> you adjust the transmit power on a station, you don't adjust it's > receive > >> sensitivity. > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote: > >> > >>> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:23:06 -0700 > >>> From: Bob McMahon > >>> To: David Lang > >>> Cc: Ben Greear , > >>> Luca Muscariello , > >>> Cake List , > >>> Make-Wifi-fast , > >>> Leonard Kleinrock , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > , > >>> codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, > >>> cerowrt-devel , > >>> bloat > >>> Subject: Re: [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug > >> 2: > >>> Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board > >>> > >>> The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss between pairs. > It's > >>> straightforward to create a distance matrix that has hidden nodes > because > >>> all "signal loss" between pairs is defined. Let's say a 120dB > >> attenuation > >>> path will cause a node to be hidden as an example. > >>> > >>> A B C D > >>> A - 35 120 65 > >>> B - 65 65 > >>> C - 65 > >>> D - > >>> > >>> So in the above, AC are hidden from each other but nobody else is. It > >> does > >>> assume symmetry between pairs but that's typically true. > >>> > >>> The RF device takes these distance matrices as settings and calculates > >> the > >>> five branch tree values (as demonstrated in the video). There are > >>> limitations to solutions though but I've found those not to be an issue > >> to > >>> date. I've been able to produce hidden nodes quite readily. Add the > phase > >>> shifters and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but this isn't > >>> shown in this simple example. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM David Lang wrote: > >>> > >>>> I guess it depends on what you are intending to test. If you are not > >> going > >>>> to > >>>> tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including the number of > >>>> packets > >>>> transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen over the air > >>>> don't > >>>> matter much. > >>>> > >>>> But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what is getting > >> sent, > >>>> and > >>>> you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will create a > >>>> solution that > >>>> seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's face out in the > >>>> wild > >>>> where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the norm (at least > >> in > >>>> urban > >>>> areas), not rare corner cases. > >>>> > >>>> you don't need to include them in every test, but you need to have a > way > >>>> to > >>>> configure your lab to include them before you consider any > >>>> settings/algorithm > >>>> ready to try in the wild. > >>>> > >>>> David Lang > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one quite good for > >> lots > >>>> of > >>>>> testing. The six nodes allows for a primary BSS and two adjacent > ones. > >>>> We > >>>>> want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficient. > >>>>> > >>>>> The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. montecarlos) that's > >>>>> reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, the distance > >>>> matrices > >>>>> have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provide these > >>>> h-matrices. > >>>>> > >>>>> The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and phase shifters > >>>>> aren't very expensive. A device that supports a five branch tree and > >> 2x2 > >>>>> MIMO seems a very good starting point. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote: > >>>>>>> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi, you need to > >>>>>> include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen with RF, not > >>>> with > >>>>>> wired networks and > >>>>>>> are commonly overlooked > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot hear each > other > >>>>>>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot hear station A > >> 3. > >>>>>> station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not with a > >> strong > >>>>>> enough signal to > >>>>>>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around interference, > >> but > >>>>>> in practice interference is still a real thing) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> David Lang > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To add to this, I think you need lots of different station devices, > >>>>>> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc) > >>>>>> different numbers of spatial streams, and different distances from > the > >>>>>> AP. From download queueing perspective, changing > >>>>>> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping all stations at > same > >>>>>> distance. This assumes you are not > >>>>>> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, so different > >> throughput > >>>>>> levels for different stations would be enough. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of real stations) > and a > >>>> few > >>>>>> RF chambers and > >>>>>> programmable attenuators and you can test that setup... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From upload perspective, I guess same setup would do the job. > >>>>>> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the > >>>>>> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I guess a clever AP > could > >>>>>> enforce fairness in upstream direction > >>>>>> too by implementing per-sta queues. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>> Ben > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Ben Greear > >>>>>> Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000d6469305c8a9cda4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another thing to keep in mind is we're using a poor ma= n's version of emulating "passive channels" so the device tra= nsmit powers can provide power asymmetry. The distance matrix is about the = h-matrices (as shown early in the slides.)=C2=A0 Even with that though, the= h-matrix elements aren't likely symmetric but it's a reasonable st= arting point to assume they are. Also being able to switch them in near rea= ltime=C2=A0allows for some forms of transmit=C2=A0and receive asymmetry in = the emulated channels as well.

Bob

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 9:44 PM Dav= id Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
I agree that we d= on't want to make perfect the enemy of better.

A lot of the issues I'm calling out can be simulated/enhanced with diff= erent
power levels.

over wifi distances, I don't think time delays are going to be noticabl= e (we're
talking 10s to low 100s of feet, not miles)

David Lang

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote:

> fair enough, but for this "RF emulator device" being able to= support
> distance matrices, even hollow symmetric ones, is much better than wha= t's
> typically done. The variable solid state phase shifters are 0-360 so d= on't
> provide real time delays either.
>
> This is another "something is better than nothing" type prop= osal. I think
> it can be deployed at a relatively low cost which allows for more
> standardized, automated test rigs and much less human interactions and=
> human errors.
>
> Bob
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 9:30 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
>> symmetry is not always (or usually) true. stations are commonly he= ard at
>> much
>> larger distances than they can talk, mobile devices have much less=
>> transmit
>> power (becuase they are operating on batteries) than fixed station= s, and
>> when
>> you adjust the transmit power on a station, you don't adjust i= t's receive
>> sensitivity.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:23:06 -0700
>>> From: Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>> Cc: Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Luca Muscariello <muscariello@ieee.org>,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cake List <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.buff= erbloat.net>,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Leonard Kleinrock <lk@cs.ucla.edu>, starlink@lists.bufferbloat.= net,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0codel@lists.bufferbloat.net,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cerowrt-devel <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferb= loat.net>,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel= ] Due Aug
>> 2:
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Quality workshop CFP for the inter= net architecture board
>>>
>>> The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss between p= airs.=C2=A0 It's
>>> straightforward to create a distance matrix that has hidden no= des because
>>> all "signal=C2=A0 loss" between pairs is defined.=C2= =A0 Let's say a 120dB
>> attenuation
>>> path will cause a node to be hidden as an example.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C=C2=A0= =C2=A0 D
>>> A=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A035=C2=A0 =C2=A0120=C2=A0 =C2=A065<= br> >>> B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 65=C2= =A0 =C2=A065
>>> C=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A065
>>> D=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-
>>>
>>> So in the above, AC are hidden from each other but nobody else= is. It
>> does
>>> assume symmetry between pairs but that's typically true. >>>
>>> The RF device takes these distance matrices as settings and ca= lculates
>> the
>>> five branch tree values (as demonstrated in the video). There = are
>>> limitations to solutions though but I've found those not t= o be an issue
>> to
>>> date. I've been able to produce hidden nodes quite readily= . Add the phase
>>> shifters and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but t= his isn't
>>> shown in this simple example.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I guess it depends on what you are intending to test. If y= ou are not
>> going
>>>> to
>>>> tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including th= e number of
>>>> packets
>>>> transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen = over the air
>>>> don't
>>>> matter much.
>>>>
>>>> But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what i= s getting
>> sent,
>>>> and
>>>> you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will = create a
>>>> solution that
>>>> seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's= face out in the
>>>> wild
>>>> where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the no= rm (at least
>> in
>>>> urban
>>>> areas), not rare corner cases.
>>>>
>>>> you don't need to include them in every test, but you = need to have a way
>>>> to
>>>> configure your lab to include them before you consider any=
>>>> settings/algorithm
>>>> ready to try in the wild.
>>>>
>>>> David Lang
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one q= uite good for
>> lots
>>>> of
>>>>> testing.=C2=A0 The six nodes allows for a primary BSS = and two adjacent ones.
>>>> We
>>>>> want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficien= t.
>>>>>
>>>>> The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. mont= ecarlos) that's
>>>>> reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, = the distance
>>>> matrices
>>>>> have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provi= de these
>>>> h-matrices.
>>>>>
>>>>> The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and= phase shifters
>>>>> aren't very expensive. A device that supports a fi= ve branch tree and
>> 2x2
>>>>> MIMO seems a very good starting point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.c= om>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote:
>>>>>>> If you are going to setup a test environment f= or wifi, you need to
>>>>>> include the ability to make a fe cases that only h= appen with RF, not
>>>> with
>>>>>> wired networks and
>>>>>>> are commonly overlooked
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they= cannot hear each other
>>>>>>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B = cannot hear station A
>> 3.
>>>>>> station A can hear that station B is transmitting,= but not with a
>> strong
>>>>>> enough signal to
>>>>>>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work = around interference,
>> but
>>>>>> in practice interference is still a real thing) >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To add to this, I think you need lots of different= station devices,
>>>>>> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc)
>>>>>> different numbers of spatial streams, and differen= t distances from the
>>>>>> AP.=C2=A0 From download queueing perspective, chan= ging
>>>>>> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping a= ll stations at same
>>>>>> distance.=C2=A0 This assumes you are not
>>>>>> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, s= o different
>> throughput
>>>>>> levels for different stations would be enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of = real stations) and a
>>>> few
>>>>>> RF chambers and
>>>>>> programmable attenuators and you can test that set= up...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 From upload perspective, I guess same setup = would do the job.
>>>>>> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the >>>>>> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I gues= s a clever AP could
>>>>>> enforce fairness in upstream direction
>>>>>> too by implementing per-sta queues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>
>>>>>> Candela Technologies Inc=C2=A0 http://www.candela= tech.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --000000000000d6469305c8a9cda4-- --000000000000dcdbec05c8a9cd1e Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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