From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A9303CB38 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 16:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id t3so29792402edc.7 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 13:04:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=guKH8PvIf1JYjSNXrv9HwFCmnWjwpB6qDcKik8k6cQk=; b=LJgfHuAkliv05eFcvsPAKNwaxDleLB6XrHtLFMNw8ZNQF7lssjIcBoaAm1bC2oiyQf ryl1E2R4sqq/sTyqpDgMcENo7mXUWsbyXdLxxLl/uqwk96XhBDCokODGrfeTOni9rrF3 40gvw1hv0icT8Rg2mRjXTwI26yZBZxYSEbOAg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=guKH8PvIf1JYjSNXrv9HwFCmnWjwpB6qDcKik8k6cQk=; b=YVeEKmsTdJqy/cpxOYX7IdmxqpLdD7Q+2otGqqaDfsbeqTz8HAN/y+6FEJOXYwS9/m ly1urE+I7WTUxWOsLZCsCGFILfOyajXDPwPoWVixN0KYyXgqTcLBUjfLxqpjZmhidFON 8am0wvJON3kb6wU4/c5kofj1ZCZN782G0uu2ssCCj/m7VP9PUwe9wEPrOhJB1PyvfZYz nKEGfq7kwZicYHDpEUTOGff2Ogv1chGLg/AQ8zE5HYv1ugccb388V2Jv+ohDZikCkNYu hL+JTmk9U3Hp49fhHf1qRgi7LerWIEkxE/Yxo3yWK8JVsI+nuhwGTX8QANoeZDg4+2C8 eHhg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531u5bWrqU6Jtnl4KsZ0uqgPsUr5DC2Xrn1pYVsi3w3yoWohyUoO qPvDMFyF3uZpw7w1uRoFT/FqI4IPmOO920z5i4L4/m4tc5HomoI9iHJvAd7hjcp6DHfyWcvO7Hq bJz0rhgptDGA0TmF1wUWMDGZILS3Ua/H1OIcwkuVH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxxT5sEHUAq+TSwKEurT2uNDMi9Dj9ZRbpApV07atlMKqxLa/OtysufxRSFsKoMZrDIYcg8tDIP51nD19725e8= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c89a:: with SMTP id p26mr663222eds.373.1626120292552; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 13:04:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <1625773080.94974089@apps.rackspace.com> <1625859083.09751240@apps.rackspace.com> <1626111630.69692379@apps.rackspace.com> <9c3d61c1-7013-414e-964d-9e83f596e69d@candelatech.com> In-Reply-To: <9c3d61c1-7013-414e-964d-9e83f596e69d@candelatech.com> From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 13:04:41 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point To: Ben Greear Cc: "David P. Reed" , "Livingood, Jason" , Luca Muscariello , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Leonard Kleinrock , "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "codel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="0000000000006c75ee05c6f2a2a2" X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 20:04:54 -0000 --0000000000006c75ee05c6f2a2a2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066ed5405c6f2a2a9" --00000000000066ed5405c6f2a2a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I believe end host's TCP stats are insufficient as seen per the "failed" congested control mechanisms over the last decades. I think Jaffe pointed this out in 1979 though he was using what's been deemed on this thread as "spherical cow queueing theory." "Flow control in store-and-forward computer networks is appropriate for decentralized execution. A formal description of a class of "decentralized flow control algorithms" is given. The feasibility of maximizing power with such algorithms is investigated. On the assumption that communication links behave like M/M/1 servers it is shown that no "decentralized flow control algorithm" can maximize network power. Power has been suggested in the literature as a network performance objective. It is also shown that no objective based only on the users' throughputs and average delay is decentralizable. Finally, a restricted class of algorithms cannot even approximate power." https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1095152 Did Jaffe make a mistake? Also, it's been observed that latency is non-parametric in it's distributions and computing gaussians per the central limit theorem for OWD feedback loops aren't effective. How does one design a control loop around things that are non-parametric? It also begs the question, what are the feed forward knobs that can actually help? Bob On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 12:07 PM Ben Greear wrote: > Measuring one or a few links provides a bit of data, but seems like if > someone is trying to understand > a large and real network, then the OWD between point A and B needs to just > be input into something much > more grand. Assuming real-time OWD data exists between 100 to 1000 > endpoint pairs, has anyone found a way > to visualize this in a useful manner? > > Also, considering something better than ntp may not really scale to 1000+ > endpoints, maybe round-trip > time is only viable way to get this type of data. In that case, maybe > clever logic could use things > like trace-route to get some idea of how long it takes to get 'onto' the > internet proper, and so estimate > the last-mile latency. My assumption is that the last-mile latency is > where most of the pervasive > assymetric network latencies would exist (or just ping 8.8.8.8 which is > 20ms from everywhere due to > $magic). > > Endpoints could also triangulate a bit if needed, using some anchor points > in the network > under test. > > Thanks, > Ben > > On 7/12/21 11:21 AM, Bob McMahon wrote: > > iperf 2 supports OWD and gives full histograms for TCP write to read, > TCP connect times, latency of packets (with UDP), latency of "frames" with > > simulated video traffic (TCP and UDP), xfer times of bursts with low > duty cycle traffic, and TCP RTT (sampling based.) It also has support for > sampling (per > > interval reports) down to 100 usecs if configured with > --enable-fastsampling, otherwise the fastest sampling is 5 ms. We've > released all this as open source. > > > > OWD only works if the end realtime clocks are synchronized using a > "machine level" protocol such as IEEE 1588 or PTP. Sadly, *most data > centers don't provide > > sufficient level of clock accuracy and the GPS pulse per second * to > colo and vm customers. > > > > https://iperf2.sourceforge.io/iperf-manpage.html > > > > Bob > > > > On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 10:40 AM David P. Reed > wrote: > > > > > > On Monday, July 12, 2021 9:46am, "Livingood, Jason" < > Jason_Livingood@comcast.com > said: > > > > > I think latency/delay is becoming seen to be as important > certainly, if not a more direct proxy for end user QoE. This is all still > evolving and I have > > to say is a super interesting & fun thing to work on. :-) > > > > If I could manage to sell one idea to the management hierarchy of > communications industry CEOs (operators, vendors, ...) it is this one: > > > > "It's the end-to-end latency, stupid!" > > > > And I mean, by end-to-end, latency to complete a task at a relevant > layer of abstraction. > > > > At the link level, it's packet send to packet receive completion. > > > > But at the transport level including retransmission buffers, it's > datagram (or message) origination until the acknowledgement arrives for > that message being > > delivered after whatever number of retransmissions, freeing the > retransmission buffer. > > > > At the WWW level, it's mouse click to display update corresponding > to completion of the request. > > > > What should be noted is that lower level latencies don't directly > predict the magnitude of higher-level latencies. But longer lower level > latencies almost > > always amplfify higher level latencies. Often non-linearly. > > > > Throughput is very, very weakly related to these latencies, in > contrast. > > > > The amplification process has to do with the presence of queueing. > Queueing is ALWAYS bad for latency, and throughput only helps if it is in > exactly the > > right place (the so-called input queue of the bottleneck process, > which is often a link, but not always). > > > > Can we get that slogan into Harvard Business Review? Can we get it > taught in Managerial Accounting at HBS? (which does address > logistics/supply chain queueing). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This electronic communication and the information and any files > transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended > solely for the use of > > the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain > information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy > laws, or otherwise > > restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the > intended recipient, > > you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, > dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly > prohibited. If you > > received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, > delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. > > > -- > Ben Greear > Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com > > -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --00000000000066ed5405c6f2a2a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe end host's TCP stats are insufficient as see= n per the "failed" congested control mechanisms over the last dec= ades. I think Jaffe pointed this out in 1979 though he was using what's= been deemed on this thread as "spherical cow queueing theory."
"Flow control in store-and-forward computer networks is appropri= ate for decentralized execution. A formal description of a class of "d= ecentralized flow control algorithms" is given. The feasibility of max= imizing power with such algorithms is investigated. On the assumption that = communication links behave like M/M/1 servers it is shown that no "dec= entralized flow control algorithm" can maximize network power. Power h= as been suggested in the literature as a network performance objective. It = is also shown that no objective based only on the users' throughputs an= d average delay is decentralizable. Finally, a restricted class of algorith= ms cannot even approximate power."

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/docu= ment/1095152

Did Jaffe make a mistake?

Also, it's bee= n observed that latency=C2=A0is non-parametric in it's distributions an= d computing gaussians=C2=A0per the central limit theorem for OWD feedback l= oops aren't effective. How does one design a control loop around things= that are non-parametric? It also begs the question, what are the feed forw= ard knobs that can actually help?

Bob

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 12:07 P= M Ben Greear <greearb@candela= tech.com> wrote:
Measuring one or a few links provides a bit of data, but seems like= if someone is trying to understand
a large and real network, then the OWD between point A and B needs to just = be input into something much
more grand.=C2=A0 Assuming real-time OWD data exists between 100 to 1000 en= dpoint pairs, has anyone found a way
to visualize this in a useful manner?

Also, considering something better than ntp may not really scale to 1000+ e= ndpoints, maybe round-trip
time is only viable way to get this type of data.=C2=A0 In that case, maybe= clever logic could use things
like trace-route to get some idea of how long it takes to get 'onto'= ; the internet proper, and so estimate
the last-mile latency.=C2=A0 My assumption is that the last-mile latency is= where most of the pervasive
assymetric network latencies would exist (or just ping 8.8.8.8 which is 20m= s from everywhere due to
$magic).

Endpoints could also triangulate a bit if needed, using some anchor points = in the network
under test.

Thanks,
Ben

On 7/12/21 11:21 AM, Bob McMahon wrote:
> iperf 2 supports OWD and gives full histograms for TCP write to read, = TCP connect times, latency of packets (with UDP), latency of "frames&q= uot; with
> simulated=C2=A0video=C2=A0traffic (TCP and UDP), xfer times of bursts = with low duty cycle traffic, and TCP RTT (sampling based.) It also has supp= ort for sampling (per
> interval reports) down to 100 usecs if configured with --enable-fastsa= mpling, otherwise the fastest sampling is 5 ms. We've released all this= as open source.
>
> OWD only works if the end realtime clocks are synchronized using a &qu= ot;machine level" protocol such as IEEE 1588 or PTP. Sadly, *most data= centers don't provide
> sufficient level of clock accuracy and the GPS pulse per second * to c= olo and vm customers.
>
> https://iperf2.sourceforge.io/iperf-manpage.htm= l
>
> Bob
>
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 10:40 AM David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com <mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com<= /a>>> wrote:
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Monday, July 12, 2021 9:46am, "Livingood, J= ason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com <mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>&g= t; said:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I think latency/delay is becoming seen to be = as important certainly, if not a more direct proxy for end user QoE. This i= s all still evolving and I have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to say is a super interesting & fun thing to wo= rk on. :-)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If I could manage to sell one idea to the managemen= t hierarchy of communications industry CEOs (operators, vendors, ...) it is= this one:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"It's the end-to-end latency, stupid!"= ;
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And I mean, by end-to-end, latency to complete a ta= sk at a relevant layer of abstraction.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0At the link level, it's packet send to packet r= eceive completion.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But at the transport level including retransmission= buffers, it's datagram (or message) origination until the acknowledgem= ent arrives for that message being
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0delivered after whatever number of retransmissions,= freeing the retransmission buffer.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0At the WWW level, it's mouse click to display u= pdate corresponding to completion of the request.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What should be noted is that lower level latencies = don't directly predict the magnitude of higher-level latencies. But lon= ger lower level latencies almost
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0always amplfify higher level latencies. Often non-l= inearly.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Throughput is very, very weakly related to these la= tencies, in contrast.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The amplification process has to do with the presen= ce of queueing. Queueing is ALWAYS bad for latency, and throughput only hel= ps if it is in exactly the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0right place (the so-called input queue of the bottl= eneck process, which is often a link, but not always).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Can we get that slogan into Harvard Business Review= ? Can we get it taught in Managerial Accounting at HBS? (which does address= logistics/supply chain queueing).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This electronic communication and the information and any files transm= itted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely = for the use of
> the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain infor= mation that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws,= or otherwise
> restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended= recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the inten= ded recipient,
> you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemina= tion, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibite= d. If you
> received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender,= delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it.


--
Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>
Candela Technologies Inc=C2=A0 http://www.candelatech.com


This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --00000000000066ed5405c6f2a2a9-- --0000000000006c75ee05c6f2a2a2 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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