From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x62d.google.com (mail-ej1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AC903CB38 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2021 01:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id c25so9061427ejb.3 for ; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 22:15:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7VX9FfAI+YANAMxAf6vGXwJhWOMSbJBjXTFVtQtPKb8=; b=dEKKeHWxCEyK74hQMSiOWJJPnfDVxLWed60EAhClHRy0XCdPnUqKAoADKR115KWtou fvc3jzeInI+p9RdG4ePDeBZ90Mzlfkg3fN2TXfkLw0HM9qgHkQvEQyRRx9Ole7P1dpqs MWS0MKexpCjDPf2161Y4v5ayHaw1vRI4EBmog= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7VX9FfAI+YANAMxAf6vGXwJhWOMSbJBjXTFVtQtPKb8=; b=OleSB0j+lPUXGgUkiqLccr0Q6C5HbUbzxCyu3zhbQ3CAiPMNKDZFl6Yv0+kLXuGA/m VXithXJQqB+kPUKg/eg2HqHPwv+UV/Bed7VFaHf9X5KL9WH3bTmV2AkdiBPZ6Y4FyI0X Oe+vT+rSGzFM88ddTd8FnIwnY2xYjkK1lT+7dS5WmzcovuHi9TOffY68MPXyNEsHEgTw NhJHn1/zcLnt7/T0qXNN/x5BWE8rsts9Kmp/7BFl045U3orzrvZunrKyQOjmaXMpu7GR c4YnwAnbDP3ih4JQTWEGh+MIPlCdmyVHIQCD+ijuJmcirbYeS2ss3HQtte40lkEMIEvF M1ZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310WYPnEbV2M2GGvsKmkR1EvblF9R3VXd2AnQfJtMBv83mX7V5J XM3yQu1Tv+L4ONfbU9CBmjkiJHoMz3k/eKoWgN9VB1R29R7FW/hUOcrB3b4nW1RnPpyPHEzwV5t szni0lLPUwGi8MrOXgBOLiKUJMwxuV6Kw63DIoOSf X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwDS2cNoh+zWRT4fwPwXTHXYcoYe7uLNlvckA6RjqCmulBSFYvdd1nwXG4ffXH56ptBcpG+v8FysL4LkJZU/wc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4e85:: with SMTP id v5mr16654917eju.159.1628399746128; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 22:15:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <1625773080.94974089@apps.rackspace.com> <8677F5C4-1893-4A61-A13C-3C8BE17CB789@cs.ucla.edu> <4F6EFB347C08475A9F53B24E0D8BEAE2@SRA6> In-Reply-To: <4F6EFB347C08475A9F53B24E0D8BEAE2@SRA6> From: Bob McMahon Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 22:15:35 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu Cc: Leonard Kleinrock , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Make-Wifi-fast , Cake List , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000070460505c9055c9f" X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2021 05:15:47 -0000 --00000000000070460505c9055c9f Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006bdf1005c9055cd8" --0000000000006bdf1005c9055cd8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have hundreds of test rigs in multiple labs all over geography. Each rig is shielded from the others using things like RF enclosures. We want reproducibility in the RF paths/channels as well as variability. Most have built fixed rigs using conducted equipment. This is far from anything real. A butler matrix produces great condition numbers but that makes it too easy for MIMO rate selection algorithms. Our real world test is using a real house that has been rented. Not cheap nor scalable. There is quite a gap between the two. A RF path device that supports both variable range and variable mixing is a step towards closing the gap. Bob On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dick Roy wrote: > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] *On > Behalf Of *Bob McMahon > *Sent:* Monday, August 2, 2021 6:24 PM > *To:* Leonard Kleinrock > *Cc:* starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List; > codel@lists.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; bloat > *Subject:* Re: [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug > 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board > > > > I found the following talk relevant to distances between all the nodes. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DPNoUcQTCxiM > > Distance is an abstract idea but applies to energy into a node as well as > phylogenetic trees. It's the same problem, i.e. fitting a distance matrix > using some sort of tree. I've found the five branch tree works well for > four nodes. > > *[RR] These trees are means for approximating a higher dimensional > real-world problem with a lower dimensional structure. You may be doing > this to save hardware when trying to cable up some complex test scenarios= , > however I=E2=80=99m wondering why? Why not just put the STAs in the lab = and turn > them on rather than cabling them?* > > > > Bob > > > > On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 5:37 PM Leonard Kleinrock wrote: > > These cases are what my student, Fouad Tobagi and I called the Hidden > Terminal Problem (with the Busy Tone solution) back in 1975. > > Len > > > > On Aug 2, 2021, at 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote: > > > > If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi, you need to > include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen with RF, not with > wired networks and are commonly overlooked > > > > 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot hear each other > > 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot hear station A 3. > station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not with a strong > enough signal to decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around > interference, but in practice interference is still a real thing) > > > > David Lang > > > > > This electronic communication and the information and any files > transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed an= d > may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protect= ed > by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. = If > you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for deliveri= ng > the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any us= e, > copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of > this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, > please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and > destroy any printed copy of it. > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000006bdf1005c9055cd8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We have hundreds of test rigs in multiple labs all over ge= ography. Each rig is shielded from the others using things like RF enclosur= es. We want reproducibility in the RF paths/channels as well as variability= . Most have built fixed rigs using conducted equipment. This is far from an= ything=C2=A0real. A butler matrix produces great condition numbers but that= makes it too easy for MIMO rate selection algorithms.

Our real worl= d test is using a real house that has been rented. Not cheap nor scalable.<= br>
There is quite=C2=A0a gap between the two. A RF path device that sup= ports both variable range and variable mixing is a step towards closing the= gap.

Bob

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 10:07 PM Dick Roy <dickroy@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

From:<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"> Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Bob McMahon
Sent: Monday, August 2, 2021= 6:24 PM
To: Leonard Kleinrock
Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<= /a>; Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List; codel@lists.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; bloat
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Cak= e] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP f= or the internet architecture board

=C2=A0

I found the following talk relevant to distances betwe= en all the nodes.=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DPNoUcQTCxiM

Distance is an abstract idea but applies to energy into a node as well as phylogenetic trees. It's the same problem, i.e. fitting a distance matr= ix using some sort of tree. I've found the five branch tree works well for four = nodes.=

[RR] These trees are means for approximating a higher dimensional real-world problem with a lower dimensional structure.=C2=A0 Yo= u may be doing this to save hardware when trying to cable up some complex test scena= rios, however I=E2=80=99m wondering why?=C2=A0 Why not just put the STAs in the l= ab and turn them on rather than cabling them?



Bob=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 5:37 PM Leonard Kleinrock <<= a href=3D"mailto:lk@cs.ucla.edu" target=3D"_blank">lk@cs.ucla.edu> w= rote:

These cases are what my student, Fouad Tobagi and I called the Hidden Terminal Problem (with the Bu= sy Tone solution) back in 1975.

Len


> On Aug 2, 2021, at 4:16 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi, you need to inc= lude the ability to make a fe cases that only happen with RF, not with wired networks and are commonly overlooked
>
> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot hear each other<= br> > 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot hear station A 3. station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not with a strong en= ough signal to decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around interference= , but in practice interference is still a real thing)
>
> David Lang
>


This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with= it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of = the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information th= at is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwis= e restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intend= ed recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail = to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of i= t.


This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. 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