From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com (mail-ed1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97E893B2A4 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2021 01:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id z11so19437003edb.11 for ; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 22:04:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KSUqosV5wKDMfXMYtiyCD2VTHcwFwzw/dbNrjYPZxiM=; b=h8V/ODYBqXhYjnvOamoi68Dv25EOX1mdrVVasAzkJM3JEey5kfr1sSQD5csbm+Bkym vVpMKKKtRSL5EiCzfZKsy3S4aX5TkTI+WuLtmFY4qTC26kVAEIFJ5CTqVkukLHXeof4m TWYk/Fw0Fw9FXnSg8eAILyxvs1YGT6vuo2anc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KSUqosV5wKDMfXMYtiyCD2VTHcwFwzw/dbNrjYPZxiM=; b=reF7XXhfpOhO2RsR6j5W0O6g3ysS/gIMkNWxNgq6pwhHO5/YGiFGoNR7gA5xOnFEUV Ck2cyQgkDWPb3uzoK77/YN0qQGM2pDeQBXhlCyqoluuzQds4FhJV9S4MTe32glzDMQPC 3LWIbt1ocrjVABd4xV3gWnHk7WbQGo+xNorivBNTtbvuOUIQKUoUrsFMt7wb3ue0j6Q3 fRnboT5puwghMOqscX2seAmLKLW25PqcXI64JMQUWbF7m+BGfNXFIJJfOrSBIjesQpCa c2kvwRvLI9u5h+jA10l4uw0GpctRMG1n2uINKHolFw9aFBbL0MlS42slzQiZMSsBJFiy aX4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324AW/oQxlX6nWVWkK1biU65dqCZNguBvN0mLKwG/tFtizUCq8W uCp+ES95s/fW82x1G4iPe9r1SolmO0dCUmqettSN3H3MgAxGbIYfCZ/uCjAA9fX5yyxpdu8Xeyt TGiXXxhiNZIPIHBUTo4dvimt0UQmDlD18rZIiJ1Qe X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyklXXVMfJ4o3zQlWkIJ9UGMJAraiSkt9wzmcFcTHln4m3BmDDttRO1et+9bQFq/ItDnV8371shdCtwhV5xCjs= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c795:: with SMTP id n21mr22099635eds.182.1628399085957; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 22:04:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <1625773080.94974089@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 22:04:35 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu Cc: David Lang , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Make-Wifi-fast , Cake List , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000016c26c05c905354f" X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2021 05:04:47 -0000 --00000000000016c26c05c905354f Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001281de05c90535c5" --0000000000001281de05c90535c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The four nodes being connected per a five branch tree using variable attenuators on the branches can produce hidden nodes quite readily. The solutions for the attenuations are straight forward per being given the desired distance matrices. The challenging part is supporting distance matrices that have h-matrices as the elements. The solid state variable phase shifters combined with chips that can dump the h-matrix works fairly well per running monte carlos and grabbing such a distance matrix. Mapping these distance matrices, matrices with h-matrices as the elements, to "real world" conditions is not so easy. But having the ability to do so at a reasonable price and in a reproducible way is very worthwhile to automated testing systems. Bob On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 9:35 PM Dick Roy wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf > Of > David Lang > Sent: Monday, August 2, 2021 9:31 PM > To: Bob McMahon > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List; > codel@lists.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; bloat > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: > Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board > > symmetry is not always (or usually) true. > [RR] There is a big difference between "symmetric RF channels" and > "balanced > RF links". Be careful not to confuse the two. > > stations are commonly heard at much > larger distances than they can talk, mobile devices have much less > transmit > power (becuase they are operating on batteries) than fixed stations, and > when > you adjust the transmit power on a station, you don't adjust it's receive > sensitivity. > > [RR] Not quite true. Rx sensitivity is a function of MCS (the modulation > and > coding scheme) and those levels can be adjusted, both up and down, by > changing the MCS. This is in fact one of the major tools that needs to be > integrated into wireless systems today. It's generally overlooked, though > not always! Starlink should be doing this if they are not already BTW! > > David Lang > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:23:06 -0700 > > From: Bob McMahon > > To: David Lang > > Cc: Ben Greear , > > Luca Muscariello , > > Cake List , > > Make-Wifi-fast , > > Leonard Kleinrock , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, > > codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, > > cerowrt-devel , > > bloat > > Subject: Re: [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug > 2: > > Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board > > > > The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss between pairs. It's > > straightforward to create a distance matrix that has hidden nodes because > > all "signal loss" between pairs is defined. Let's say a 120dB > attenuation > > path will cause a node to be hidden as an example. > > > > A B C D > > A - 35 120 65 > > B - 65 65 > > C - 65 > > D - > > > > So in the above, AC are hidden from each other but nobody else is. It > does > > assume symmetry between pairs but that's typically true. > > > > The RF device takes these distance matrices as settings and calculates > the > > five branch tree values (as demonstrated in the video). There are > > limitations to solutions though but I've found those not to be an issue > to > > date. I've been able to produce hidden nodes quite readily. Add the phase > > shifters and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but this isn't > > shown in this simple example. > > > > Bob > > > > On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM David Lang wrote: > > > >> I guess it depends on what you are intending to test. If you are not > going > >> to > >> tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including the number of > >> packets > >> transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen over the air > >> don't > >> matter much. > >> > >> But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what is getting > sent, > >> and > >> you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will create a > >> solution that > >> seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's face out in the > >> wild > >> where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the norm (at least > in > >> urban > >> areas), not rare corner cases. > >> > >> you don't need to include them in every test, but you need to have a way > >> to > >> configure your lab to include them before you consider any > >> settings/algorithm > >> ready to try in the wild. > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote: > >> > >>> We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one quite good for > lots > >> of > >>> testing. The six nodes allows for a primary BSS and two adjacent ones. > >> We > >>> want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficient. > >>> > >>> The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. montecarlos) that's > >>> reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, the distance > >> matrices > >>> have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provide these > >> h-matrices. > >>> > >>> The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and phase shifters > >>> aren't very expensive. A device that supports a five branch tree and > 2x2 > >>> MIMO seems a very good starting point. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote: > >>>>> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi, you need to > >>>> include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen with RF, not > >> with > >>>> wired networks and > >>>>> are commonly overlooked > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot hear each other > >>>>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot hear station A > 3. > >>>> station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not with a > strong > >>>> enough signal to > >>>>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around interference, > but > >>>> in practice interference is still a real thing) > >>>>> > >>>>> David Lang > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> To add to this, I think you need lots of different station devices, > >>>> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc) > >>>> different numbers of spatial streams, and different distances from the > >>>> AP. From download queueing perspective, changing > >>>> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping all stations at same > >>>> distance. This assumes you are not > >>>> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, so different > throughput > >>>> levels for different stations would be enough. > >>>> > >>>> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of real stations) and a > >> few > >>>> RF chambers and > >>>> programmable attenuators and you can test that setup... > >>>> > >>>> From upload perspective, I guess same setup would do the job. > >>>> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the > >>>> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I guess a clever AP could > >>>> enforce fairness in upstream direction > >>>> too by implementing per-sta queues. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Ben > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Ben Greear > >>>> Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --0000000000001281de05c90535c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The four nodes being connected per a five branch tree usin= g variable attenuators on the branches can produce hidden nodes quite readi= ly. The solutions for the attenuations are straight forward per being given= the desired distance matrices.

The challenging=C2=A0part is support= ing distance matrices that have h-matrices as the elements. The solid state= variable phase shifters combined=C2=A0with chips that can dump the h-matri= x works fairly=C2=A0well per running=C2=A0monte carlos and grabbing such a = distance matrix. Mapping these distance matrices, matrices with h-matrices = as the elements, to "real world"=C2=A0conditions is not so easy. = But having the ability to do so at a reasonable=C2=A0price and in a reprodu= cible way is very worthwhile to automated=C2=A0testing=C2=A0systems.
Bob

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 9:35 PM Dick Roy <dickroy@alum.mit.edu> wrote:


-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Beha= lf Of
David Lang
Sent: Monday, August 2, 2021 9:31 PM
To: Bob McMahon
Cc: sta= rlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List;
codel@list= s.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; bloat
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2:<= br> Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board

symmetry is not always (or usually) true.
[RR] There is a big difference between "symmetric RF channels" an= d "balanced
RF links".=C2=A0 Be careful not to confuse the two.

stations are commonly heard at much
larger distances than they can talk, mobile devices have much less transmit=
power (becuase they are operating on batteries) than fixed stations, and when
you adjust the transmit power on a station, you don't adjust it's r= eceive
sensitivity.

[RR] Not quite true. Rx sensitivity is a function of MCS (the modulation an= d
coding scheme) and those levels can be adjusted, both up and down, by
changing the MCS.=C2=A0 This is in fact one of the major tools that needs t= o be
integrated into wireless systems today.=C2=A0 It's generally overlooked= , though
not always! Starlink should be doing this if they are not already BTW!

David Lang

=C2=A0 On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote:

> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:23:06 -0700
> From: Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
> To: David Lang <= david@lang.hm>
> Cc: Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Luca Muscariello <muscariello@ieee.org>,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cake List <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.= net>,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Leonard Kleinrock <lk@cs.ucla.edu>, starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net,=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0codel@lists.bufferbloat.net,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cerowrt-devel <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net= >,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Au= g 2:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet arch= itecture board
>
> The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss between pairs.=C2= =A0 It's
> straightforward to create a distance matrix that has hidden nodes beca= use
> all "signal=C2=A0 loss" between pairs is defined.=C2=A0 Let&= #39;s say a 120dB
attenuation
> path will cause a node to be hidden as an example.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = D
> A=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A035=C2=A0 =C2=A0120=C2=A0 =C2=A065
> B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 65=C2=A0 =C2= =A065
> C=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A065
> D=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-
>
> So in the above, AC are hidden from each other but nobody else is. It = does
> assume symmetry between pairs but that's typically true.
>
> The RF device takes these distance matrices as settings and calculates= the
> five branch tree values (as demonstrated in the video). There are
> limitations to solutions though but I've found those not to be an = issue to
> date. I've been able to produce hidden nodes quite readily. Add th= e phase
> shifters and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but this isn&= #39;t
> shown in this simple example.
>
> Bob
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
>> I guess it depends on what you are intending to test. If you are n= ot
going
>> to
>> tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including the number= of
>> packets
>> transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen over the= air
>> don't
>> matter much.
>>
>> But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what is gettin= g sent,
>> and
>> you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will create a=
>> solution that
>> seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's face ou= t in the
>> wild
>> where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the norm (at l= east in
>> urban
>> areas), not rare corner cases.
>>
>> you don't need to include them in every test, but you need to = have a way
>> to
>> configure your lab to include them before you consider any
>> settings/algorithm
>> ready to try in the wild.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote:
>>
>>> We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one quite goo= d for lots
>> of
>>> testing.=C2=A0 The six nodes allows for a primary BSS and two = adjacent ones.
>> We
>>> want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficient.
>>>
>>> The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. montecarlos)= that's
>>> reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, the dist= ance
>> matrices
>>> have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provide these=
>> h-matrices.
>>>
>>> The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and phase s= hifters
>>> aren't very expensive. A device that supports a five branc= h tree and 2x2
>>> MIMO seems a very good starting point.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>= ;
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote:
>>>>> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi,= you need to
>>>> include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen wi= th RF, not
>> with
>>>> wired networks and
>>>>> are commonly overlooked
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot = hear each other
>>>>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot h= ear station A 3.
>>>> station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not= with a
strong
>>>> enough signal to
>>>>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around i= nterference, but
>>>> in practice interference is still a real thing)
>>>>>
>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To add to this, I think you need lots of different station= devices,
>>>> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc)
>>>> different numbers of spatial streams, and different distan= ces from the
>>>> AP.=C2=A0 From download queueing perspective, changing
>>>> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping all stati= ons at same
>>>> distance.=C2=A0 This assumes you are not
>>>> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, so differ= ent
throughput
>>>> levels for different stations would be enough.
>>>>
>>>> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of real sta= tions) and a
>> few
>>>> RF chambers and
>>>> programmable attenuators and you can test that setup... >>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 From upload perspective, I guess same setup would do= the job.
>>>> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the
>>>> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I guess a clev= er AP could
>>>> enforce fairness in upstream direction
>>>> too by implementing per-sta queues.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>
>>>> Candela Technologies Inc=C2=A0 http://www.candelatech.com=
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --0000000000001281de05c90535c5-- --00000000000016c26c05c905354f Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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