From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-vk1-xa31.google.com (mail-vk1-xa31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E8343B29D for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa31.google.com with SMTP id s144so1046541vkb.8 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 00:39:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aenertia.net; s=dkimaenertianet; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BmipFip4Pw4mlHE+AHb5+ERpTl732eqHWTGKJJsBaQA=; b=P28RTzZRdv88tCoUkuTuf3Jr0hN9vpEHo/AR3r72A+JkbY4JegcQLVkPVFYz9/9hVu f4sXPPfAZexpx7UdW0q9jMGeVYxRsUQoVTLC6OWWjIvwFFlF3iN//MYThOSdo+TCESni oHulIqLwi2h6xAv/J8VVuJ7r9uEt4tsMqMTv8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BmipFip4Pw4mlHE+AHb5+ERpTl732eqHWTGKJJsBaQA=; b=TqBwTPmWPed+xaQMQmSJlUhPe9ZuKgNDE9HyhQ9960H7FchXGp4Ou989VurLhRBg28 5grrCbdA2NrAIGuWVOpphNxnMVP12lYz1G3K9FAEDGQbO9LWiz9uqRl6AHwjx2UXMRKt H3bSyqWp7wEcrBN6UX1k/eQbXVpxmaMYFJeTDjaNaCobvUAgRbk/fq05EeQGxKmKJq6G Z1CQ/b1nxXfJ0XFtcB660JQNZThBxgQOFwANC0o7RWGkeqy+Lx0o2tjd+4N5+P8fDrTe Jf+rvMGacDohesRyV0xsNoDHEeoM/ypyVXxkU/i/cr71DUoN1FvyV8hWaF6/FJa/uokZ Dukg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530CKla/BebX1EcrCsVJkH/WiL5c0aPjFT8pliWAKtUqPylbrg4e dk/6y2fr49cDcr8ehlbn2HvjRAC0mzgb85VGW0XY6g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzVDwCRUJPn6/RoKGYWHFa+ivMKNqM2sxVNLqhFZXuriccLE5yKnXTj0MzgObnXmv9flTmqQCgva0OoiyFIY6c= X-Received: by 2002:ac5:c752:: with SMTP id b18mr349500vkn.38.1639730351770; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 00:39:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1639678615.275317887@apps.rackspace.com> <1639690165.936410589@apps.rackspace.com> <4927o62q-qq3-p947-qopq-89rppp637497@ynat.uz> <7F1B6B98-2DE2-41A3-B47F-30B46E2736FB@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:39:01 +1300 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: David Lang , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000251f2e05d3537997" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:39:12 -0000 --000000000000251f2e05d3537997 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Completely aside I have never got Cake SQM to work with connection's beyond about a gigabit biderectional ; without loosing gigabits of throughput even when running on beefy hardware. Has been a problem here for some time now. On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 9:36 pm Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling, = wrote: > The XG PON ONT units from Nokia/Huawei are coming with only 10G NbaseT > (usually singular port) only in the consumer access space. No SFP+ > > We have rolled out XG PON on the PON side to 70% of the country here (NZ= ) > over the last 2 years. Only a small % of that are actually making use of > the XGPON on the consumer side and retailers vary in offering it as a > service mainly due to having to truck roll a new ONT and lack of in home > 10G kit on the market. But the access network is there. > > Similar stories in other regions I know of that offer XGPon - lack of > consumer demand, lack of ONTs in the market that are suitable for > residential use. > > > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 9:18 pm Sebastian Moeller, wrote: > >> To add to Joel's point, >> >> I can do my own catX cable runs and connect sockets/plugs to the cables, >> but I lack the tools for fiber-splicing... as cool as that would be it i= s >> going to be hard to justify multi-100s EUR for a splicer.. That still >> leaves short distance in the main computing area of an appartment/house, >> but I doubt that many consumers have a concentration high enough to just= ify >> the costs even there. >> >> What I do see over here in Europe, with FTTH-roll out speeding up, is CP= E >> that offer SFP/SFP+ cages for the WAN side though, SFP+ becoming more >> common since ISPs started to deploy XGS-PON (gross 10Gpbs bidirectionall= y, >> after FEC ~8.5 Gbps). >> >> >> Regards >> Sebastian >> >> P.S.: I have not started jumping on the 2.5 Gbps or higher train just >> yet, none of my devices seems massively underserved with just 1Gbps yet >> (with the potential exception of a single link where >=3D 2Gbps would be= nice >> since I am one cabe short and >2Gbps would allow to multiplex two 1Gbps >> connections over that cable). >> >> >> > On Dec 16, 2021, at 22:57, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling >> wrote: >> > >> > Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average >> household structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing >> consumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space. >> > >> > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, wrote: >> > another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't >> contribute to >> > ground loops the way that copper cables can. >> > >> > and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any >> electrical >> > disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry other >> equipment >> > >> > David Lang >> > >> > On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote: >> > >> > > Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has >> seemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many failur= e >> points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for distances. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling" < >> joel@aenertia.net> said: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( >> http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N). >> > > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line >> with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cag= es >> were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a probl= em >> with newer kit. >> > > It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP >> based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the >> fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets >> were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picke= d >> it up after 5 years or feet dragging. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ dpreed@deepplum.com >> ]( mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> wrote: >> > > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. >> > > >> > > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a >> 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots= of >> 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt= 3 >> external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC. >> > > >> > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because >> twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 G= ig >> - mostly due to power and heat. >> > > >> > > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, >> and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. >> Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different ab= out >> the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the >> ethernet MAC. >> > > >> > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is >> mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacen= ter >> product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computer= s >> and switches. >> > > >> > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet >> Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers wh= o >> want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. = out >> there, it's just a configuration change. >> > > >> > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? >> > > >> > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ >> dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> has really got cheap. >> > >> >> > >> [ https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter >> ]( https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ) >> > >> >> > >> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using >> > >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved >> rate >> > >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. >> > >> >> > >> [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ]( >> https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ) >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >> > >> [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org >> ]( https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ) >> > >> >> > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list >> > >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto: >> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) >> > >> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ) >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list >> > > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto: >> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) >> > > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >> )_______________________________________________ >> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list >> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list >> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >> >> --000000000000251f2e05d3537997 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Completely aside I have never got Cake SQM to work with c= onnection's beyond about a gigabit biderectional ; without loosing giga= bits of throughput even when running on beefy hardware. Has been a problem = here for some time=C2=A0 now.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 9:36 pm Joel Wir=C4=81mu= Pauling, <joel@aenertia.net>= ; wrote:
The XG P= ON ONT units from Nokia/Huawei are coming with only 10G NbaseT (usually sin= gular port) only in the consumer access space. No SFP+=C2=A0

We have rolled out XG PON on the PON side to= 70% of the country here=C2=A0 (NZ) over the last 2 years. Only a small % o= f that are actually making use of the XGPON on the consumer side and retail= ers vary in offering it as a service mainly due to having to truck roll a n= ew ONT and lack of in home 10G kit on the market. But the access network is= there.

Similar stories = in other regions I know of that offer XGPon - lack of consumer demand, lack= of ONTs in the market that are suitable for residential use.







On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 9:18 pm Sebastian Moeller, <moeller0@gmx.de<= /a>> wrote:
To add to Joel's= point,

I can do my own catX cable runs and connect sockets/plugs to the cables, bu= t I lack the tools for fiber-splicing... as cool as that would be it is goi= ng to be hard to justify multi-100s EUR for a splicer.. That still leaves s= hort distance in the main computing area of an appartment/house, but I doub= t that many consumers have a concentration high enough to justify the costs= even there.

What I do see over here in Europe, with FTTH-roll out speeding up, is CPE t= hat offer SFP/SFP+ cages for the WAN side though, SFP+ becoming more common= since ISPs started to deploy XGS-PON (gross 10Gpbs bidirectionally, after = FEC ~8.5 Gbps).


Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian

P.S.: I have not started jumping on the 2.5 Gbps or higher train just yet, = none of my devices seems massively underserved with just 1Gbps yet (with th= e potential exception of a single link where >=3D 2Gbps would be nice si= nce I am one cabe short and >2Gbps would allow to multiplex two 1Gbps co= nnections over that cable).


> On Dec 16, 2021, at 22:57, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling <joel= @aenertia.net> wrote:
>
> Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average = household structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing co= nsumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space.
>
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, <david@lang.hm&= gt; wrote:
> another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't = contribute to
> ground loops the way that copper cables can.
>
> and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any electric= al
> disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry ot= her equipment
>
> David Lang
>
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote:
>
> > Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept = has seemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too = many failure points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium f= or distances.
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pau= ling" <joel@aenertia.net> said:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 8= 03.bz ]( http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N).
> > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of lin= e with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cage= s were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a proble= m with newer kit.
> > It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now U= TP based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from = the fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets= were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked = it up after 5 years or feet dragging.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ d= preed@deepplum.com ]( mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> = wrote:
> > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper.
> >
> > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home ha= s a 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lot= s of 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbo= lt 3 external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC.<= br> > >
> > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling becaus= e twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gi= g - mostly due to power and heat.
> >
> > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/se= c, too, and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rat= es.=C2=A0 Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently d= ifferent about the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate log= ic than the ethernet MAC.
> >
> > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is= mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacente= r product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in compu= ters and switches.
> >
> > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Interne= t Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support cus= tomers who want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOC= SIS 3 CMTS's etc. out there, it's just a configuration change.
> >
> > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig?<= br> > >
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <= ;[ dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmai= l.com )> said:
> >
> >
> >
> >> has really got cheap.
> >>
> >> [ https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ]( <= a href=3D"https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter"= rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.tom= shardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter )
> >>
> >> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually us= ing
> >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achi= eved rate
> >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit.
> >>
> >> [ htt= ps://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ]( https://forum.mikrotik.com/vie= wtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 )
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> >> [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ](= https://wayf= orward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org )
> >>
> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloa= t.net ]( mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferb= loat.net )
> >> [ https://li= sts.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-deve= l )
> >> _______________________________________________
> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net= ]( mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloa= t.net )
> > [ https://lists.= bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel )_______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.buffe= rbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.buffe= rbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel

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