From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ua1-x92b.google.com (mail-ua1-x92b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1AA03B29D for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 14:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92b.google.com with SMTP id n7so116613uaq.12 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 11:32:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aenertia.net; s=dkimaenertianet; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tnOjunjEvdvjGiOAIL35W7llt6SAJf4FTpgrI5eIXz0=; b=bNleSwZcxjEJyvVKq+h1KFomAbPKDiseu4Zd82P4Hnzvt4WuA8E1g3j6b7mWqrK0HQ KjcvfJh7cvoX7hIXGwrkD2ygltC+GC+G7WM46GmraNZDdha+7QHRqvPpT2GdvXu7Zg/K +T0/aIS33FQFyrlhlUIEdXV5u/1wRFM+7EY+E= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tnOjunjEvdvjGiOAIL35W7llt6SAJf4FTpgrI5eIXz0=; b=RoqevFZVgliTccdrOE38uLbsqfnR2kezP9LUgWpDB0wKjrul7435FcB60/KiIjX/D3 kodu3pPXykv5f3EPd7lFjmTy3EeKkpH3x4NGTEwz40IP2pBeUuLaWO3U3NVkfYkG23Zx YYTURus98rCcQ7u0QbWjx9aYsEllPmlFJ/jP6Qa4z1fpv98r5s+n6NtIRwgM0hiV9zzt tXH2wPHdmB7QhTO63wKS/kenDGoZOvnmU3Eu07fI5/6fHfqWUx1y4Dx+qAkBJgGe/CgD 6eiLvdBW5LUV8nPoKybg3Dd/SwglFk5VA1GFVZbMvnJwZDzvTBMnfF7UrOmLjuBllVDz iTrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533CUZXeVlmYFOh7wlfvMR4frg2XJkwIUhMVoSY0WPyqtYbkeJFs jtqxAsNGENyUd/yVwvZylPCHwB8rjreJkzafvDyLYQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxqa3upTiPEw0pNkuESD3lPWKdhyDnoX+WaLW082oAKyHe6Wk4KCRBsNkiqJhDWJXh3dvLdWwTQsKLwNuxtYPY= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:164d:: with SMTP id l13mr12979958uae.34.1639683128060; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 11:32:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1639678615.275317887@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1639678615.275317887@apps.rackspace.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:31:57 +1300 Message-ID: To: "David P. Reed" Cc: Dave Taht , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000064894405d3487a9c" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:32:08 -0000 --00000000000064894405d3487a9c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the 803.bz stuff (i.e Base-N). It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cages were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a problem with newer kit. It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked it up after 5 years or feet dragging. On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed wrote: > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. > > > > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10 > GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of = 10 > GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 > external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC. > > > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because twiste= d > pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gig - most= ly > due to power and heat. > > > > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, and > USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. Those > adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about the > electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the > ethernet MAC. > > > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is mainly > market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter > product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers > and switches. > > > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet Access > Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers who want > more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. out > there, it's just a configuration change. > > > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? > > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" > said: > > > has really got cheap. > > > > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter > > > > On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > > 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved rate > > by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > > > > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 > > > > > > -- > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > --00000000000064894405d3487a9c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the 803.bz stuff (i.e Base-N).

It was mostly due t= o the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line with the SFP+ spec ; which = led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cages were rated to draw and afor= ementioned heat problems; this is not a problem with newer kit.
It went awa= y with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP based 10G in the h= ome devices are more common and don't suffer from the fragility issues = of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets were the first to in= troduce it but most other vendors have finally picked it up after 5 years o= r feet dragging.



<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David = P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com&= gt; wrote:

Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper.

=C2=A0=

Since = its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10 GigE fibe= r backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of 10 GigE NIC= s in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 external ad= apter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC.

=C2=A0=

I stro= ngly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because twisted pair, = while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gig - mostly due t= o power and heat.

=C2=A0=

BTW, i= t's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, and USB-= C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates.=C2=A0 Those = adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about t= he electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the ethe= rnet MAC.

=C2=A0=

So the= reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is mainly market v= olume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter product, you&#= 39;d think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers and switche= s.

=C2=A0=

Since = DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet Access Provide= rs start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers who want = more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's= etc. out there, it's just a configuration change.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

So whe= n will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig?

=C2=A0=

On Thu= rsday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:=

> h= as really got cheap.
>
> https://www.tomsh= ardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter
>
> On the= other hand users are reporting issues with actually using
> 2.5ghz c= able with this router in particular, halving the achieved rate
> by n= egotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit.
>
> ht= tps://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836
>
&= gt;
> --
> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
&= gt; https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F= %2Fwww.icei.org
>
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
&= gt; _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel m= ailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>

_______________________________________________
Cerowrt-devel mailing list
Ce= rowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-d= evel
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