From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ua1-x92c.google.com (mail-ua1-x92c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A61A3B29D for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 16:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92c.google.com with SMTP id a14so949712uak.0 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 13:57:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aenertia.net; s=dkimaenertianet; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4twizcIByYC/44Vsik4FCIjzIUhZVifv+ys0bFFvDOg=; b=ITzou+KT8TsUHfI07f0r5fktoDoUNSIALiLzP6luUWcGnS1hp+7lUnEx2QikGdqYPq RK8CgynTziSzrJSgkuK//Fa6Rjflj0FbCe3CDIQBH0JKxU+RW6kgRdgdUSQ6nbkFLvdT VaphqGHYFt1O82tgWBRfk42/6b3PNPJWELeH8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4twizcIByYC/44Vsik4FCIjzIUhZVifv+ys0bFFvDOg=; b=TzUqgqjrvSujGCP6KTvYQNdxs8jGGsiL6HVkvw0tN0gcPjthe6YR8RIGGKqa8wkmJK 26iZ46KG/1nJiR17rArHBXrHfVhBLv6lz1d1wVkK7wprwBYxukPI+f6phpo6FbqklJH0 zHn4Iad44TFB1beYUHmfu77GFtbioqGV44azgtjshboSgt+m5D0T0iKkvfsyJZqo+eDw x7PqdutkQ9jhNu5PQrqtela0VKup6/vJkNB3YqMEpWX8QUj7lVlZ+fJaJxYG/31HiC+B +hUqJApKvQ1AHOLitZkxKRTBG7mROhVgjchzD7JXk1gJ1aBciAAKT5Urq6tysLNus5p3 oOUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532uspGcVIqsnXmEa3Zu1rh09phixUI+FZJxST6u40pAGR3r4unc PcuP1NkLWYvTluRBEWDIrhT3jmjGOjiiWkw2d6IC0w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz89dsb7UNYXnKnb5AWzWU0TSvSYT2Av2zNWVzGzYccc6LzenPmNWc06HVEagbPt+sffrim+5MlfdT49oLTVt4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:3748:: with SMTP id u8mr913vst.48.1639691866440; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 13:57:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1639678615.275317887@apps.rackspace.com> <1639690165.936410589@apps.rackspace.com> <4927o62q-qq3-p947-qopq-89rppp637497@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <4927o62q-qq3-p947-qopq-89rppp637497@ynat.uz> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:57:36 +1300 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: "David P. Reed" , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003dbd7705d34a8343" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 21:57:47 -0000 --0000000000003dbd7705d34a8343 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average household structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing consumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space. On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, wrote: > another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't > contribute to > ground loops the way that copper cables can. > > and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any electrical > disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry other > equipment > > David Lang > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote: > > > Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has seemed > to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many failure points= . > That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for distances. > > > > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling" < > joel@aenertia.net> said: > > > > > > > > > > Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( > http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N). > > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line with > the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cages wer= e > rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a problem wit= h > newer kit. > > It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP > based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the > fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets > were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked > it up after 5 years or feet dragging. > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ dpreed@deepplum.com ]( > mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> wrote: > > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. > > > > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10 > GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of = 10 > GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 > external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC. > > > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because > twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gi= g > - mostly due to power and heat. > > > > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, an= d > USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. Those > adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about the > electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the > ethernet MAC. > > > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is mainl= y > market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter > product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers > and switches. > > > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet > Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers who > want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. o= ut > there, it's just a configuration change. > > > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? > > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ > dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said: > > > > > > > >> has really got cheap. > >> > >> [ https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ]( > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ) > >> > >> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved rate > >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > >> > >> [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ]( > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ) > >> > >> > >> -- > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >> [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ]( > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ) > >> > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list > >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto: > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > >> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ) > >> _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto: > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > )_______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > --0000000000003dbd7705d34a8343 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for= the average household structured cabling real world use case. Not to menti= on nothing consumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021,= 10:43 am David Lang, <david@lang.hm> wrote:
another valuable featu= r of fiber for home use is that fiber can't contribute to
ground loops the way that copper cables can.

and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any electrical disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry other e= quipment

David Lang

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote:

> Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has s= eemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many = failure points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for di= stances.
>
>
> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling&= quot; <joel@aenertia.net> said:
>
>
>
>
> Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( http= ://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N).
> It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line wit= h the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cages wer= e rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a problem wit= h newer kit.
> It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP ba= sed 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the f= ragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets were= the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked it up= after 5 years or feet dragging.
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ dpreed@deepplum.c= om ]( mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> wrote:
> Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper.
>
> Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 1= 0 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of = 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 = external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC.
>
> I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because twi= sted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gig - m= ostly due to power and heat.
>
> BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, to= o, and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates.= =C2=A0 Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently diff= erent about the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic = than the ethernet MAC.
>
> So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is main= ly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter pro= duct, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers = and switches.
>
> Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet Acc= ess Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customer= s who want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3= CMTS's etc. out there, it's just a configuration change.
>
> So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig?
>
> On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ d= ave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said:
>
>
>
>> has really got cheap.
>>
>> [ https://www.to= mshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ]( https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk= -m2-2280-10gbe-adapter )
>>
>> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved = rate
>> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit.
>>
>> [ https://forum.mikro= tik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ]( https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p8978= 36 )
>>
>>
>> --
>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>> [ https://wayfo= rward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ]( https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org )
>>
>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
>> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mail= to:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net )
>> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.= net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( htt= ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel )
>> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" target=3D"_blank" rel= =3D"noreferrer">Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net )
> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/= listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( https:/= /lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel )________________________= _______________________
Cerowrt-devel mailing list
Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinf= o/cerowrt-devel
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