From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw0-x244.google.com (mail-yw0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAC783B2A4 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x244.google.com with SMTP id q129-v6so1068488ywg.8 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:34:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aenertia.net; s=dkimaenertianet; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=cLIgEkRXf3jQmoDVAOj5oiG3rResxjwvCSSXUTphmBc=; b=ZG39uC6gv7uihbXLgYg90ULrZxGjQarkLmO5wHa8YlWV29w7BYbe9BG/HHiy2rILhg tLLMhM0hxKrIV3qr2NW5ZD4zrhjrJ4Xp4PMaFx5bHcP4HrDuKwjqJ1zrGpyXrRMl1I16 8XjleqrECY4noilf2H1azYICVCPu8uIzyEMc8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cLIgEkRXf3jQmoDVAOj5oiG3rResxjwvCSSXUTphmBc=; b=Qzew2i3DUql/3ze+1B1Vc4UtstLDY11Ol201VGtlh1Tc4zw6Fs72asH0DaHnCaFzsE lw4mJR46mNni/F0iSsfqdiswf6IPOS2gqaApENrJ6YNGC6KE4WGPPdfPTUQIKw+1zPpJ PXHE788AKHrr7uIw9IsA5bz8hbPU9LP6N8IkBzicq3uSYZqaJSP31bUKI0AdMZhjVqgo 7nhzT7fXIgDt/psn0kiC7ADAtxAk1QGyndxF5ntmHw5CLJyhDqUB9JzjCV6W7yF0UyoO FPBY51GEqZM7BcAbcyW3OSQHgrZOP+7q6bGHL7HOxxgxwnPuAnRduflwEW/xo0IEO+7F 14rA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGZ2FFW6z+n3PdGEGzvbHiP4JtBnJ66LFwQzZrrw7X/E6hOwGoD fC2WLy8ChtPt5FZlkDI8wcj9RoGAVmLnwB5XMpUUjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpefB8blOefOMWiv/igFChKE+txycoPG6/jJYo5TAY0zllOlhCZyw2FGuq/712BbaAAEEV4M6X64x7iTPfDivZY= X-Received: by 2002:a81:354b:: with SMTP id c72-v6mr1765238ywa.443.1532637265281; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:34:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: aenertia@aenertia.net Received: by 2002:a25:9785:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:34:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1532623718.389715294@apps.rackspace.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:34:04 +1200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: -TDzgdV128lJRK35NkMxT9MLHYg Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: dpreed@deepplum.com, Jonathan Morton , cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c45a270571eceb3a" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] So how far behind is the embedded router world, still? X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 20:34:26 -0000 --000000000000c45a270571eceb3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a note - a lot of this mess is due to China's rapid dev cycles and race to the bottom on cost vs supply. Generally a fab house who is in turn contracted by an OEM in China will have 1 maybe 2 engineers who will do the initial low level C bits required for a product/board. They get it working on whatever build environment they have at hand and chuck it over the fence to product unit who ship it. Then moving onto the next contract never to be seen from again. -Joel On 27 July 2018 at 08:15, Dave Taht wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 9:48 AM dpreed@deepplum.com > wrote: > > > > How would one get Linux Foundation to raise money to sponsor a router > software initiative? > > We tried. Personally, having bled out mentally and financially more > than once, I am not up to trying again. They don't return our calls > anymore. > > > I can see that all the current network product OEMs might mass up to > kill it or make it fail. Kind of like coreboot vs. UEFI. > > > > But maybe Facebook or Amazon or Google - dedicated white-box fan > companies - might do it. Or maybe there's a Chinese funding source. > > Well, try to sort through > https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesnycouncil/2018/07/26/ > why-you-should-start-looking-at-googles-flutter-and- > fuchsia-now/#795943a6a309 > > As for china, sure, that would be great. Europe, sure. I think china > has a huge incentive to get into making better firmware in > collaboration with europe. As for america... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Jonathan Morton" > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:13am > > To: "Mikael Abrahamsson" > > Cc: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] So how fHow wouar behind is the embedded > router world, still? > > > > > On 26 Jul, 2018, at 11:53 am, Mikael Abrahamsson > wrote: > > > > > > they seem to live in a world where you take a linux kernel that's > announced as LTS (in the best of worlds), work on that for 1-2 years duri= ng > which you release an SDK, which then the device manufacturers will take a= nd > start putting their solutions on, which takes another 1-2 years before it > reaches customers. > > > > This in itself sounds like a colossal waste of developer man-hours. > Which really just serves to underline how clueless CPE vendors are - abou= t > their core business, no less. > > > > They obviously have a lot more resources than we do. What could *we* d= o > with that level of funding and organisation? Take six months, and put ou= t > a router that *doesn't* suck for a change! > > > > - Jonathan Morton > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > > -- > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > CEO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-669-226-2619 > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > --000000000000c45a270571eceb3a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a note - a lot of this mess is due to China's rapid de= v cycles and race to the bottom on cost vs supply.

Generally a fab= house who is in turn contracted by an OEM in China will have 1 maybe 2 eng= ineers who will do the initial low level C bits required for a product/boar= d. They get it working on whatever build environment they have at hand and = chuck it over the fence to product unit who ship it. Then moving onto the n= ext contract never to be seen from again.=C2=A0


-Joel
=

<= /div>

On 27 = July 2018 at 08:15, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:=
On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at= 9:48 AM dpreed@deepplum.com <= ;dpreed@deepplum.com> wrote:<= br> >
> How would one get Linux Foundation to raise money to sponsor a router = software initiative?

We tried. Personally, having bled out mentally and financially more<= br> than once, I am not up to trying again. They don't return our calls
anymore.

> I can see that all the current network product OEMs might mass up to k= ill it or make it fail. Kind of like coreboot vs. UEFI.
>
> But maybe Facebook or Amazon or Google - dedicated white-box fan compa= nies - might do it. Or maybe there's a Chinese funding source.

Well, try to sort through
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesn= ycouncil/2018/07/26/why-you-should-start-looking-at-googles-flutt= er-and-fuchsia-now/#795943a6a309

As for china, sure, that would be great. Europe, sure. I think china
has a huge incentive to get into making better firmware in
collaboration with europe. As for america...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Jonathan Morton" <chromatix99@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:13am
> To: "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>
> Cc: cerowrt-dev= el@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] So how fHow wouar behind is the embedded = router world, still?
>
> > On 26 Jul, 2018, at 11:53 am, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> >
> > they seem to live in a world where you take a linux kernel that&#= 39;s announced as LTS (in the best of worlds), work on that for 1-2 years d= uring which you release an SDK, which then the device manufacturers will ta= ke and start putting their solutions on, which takes another 1-2 years befo= re it reaches customers.
>
> This in itself sounds like a colossal waste of developer man-hours.=C2= =A0 Which really just serves to underline how clueless CPE vendors are - ab= out their core business, no less.
>
> They obviously have a lot more resources than we do.=C2=A0 What could = *we* do with that level of funding and organisation?=C2=A0 Take six months,= and put out a router that *doesn't* suck for a change!
>
>=C2=A0 - Jonathan Morton
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@l= ists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/cerowrt-devel
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@l= ists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/cerowrt-devel



--

Dave T=C3=A4ht
CEO, TekLibre, LLC
ht= tp://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-669-226-2619
____________________________= ___________________
Cerowrt-devel mailing list
Cerowrt-devel@lists.= bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cero= wrt-devel

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