From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ua1-x92c.google.com (mail-ua1-x92c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85DAA3B29D for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:36:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92c.google.com with SMTP id w23so2993568uao.5 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 00:36:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aenertia.net; s=dkimaenertianet; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5waCmsxj4H3YC56MtQNgxRWSXzuvTUA4GXlO5kxIcbc=; b=PAe3HSCfwaQK/hP9wJkea6Mb9fCUGzl58nFcwRx/H1K52hUWrxgwsCf3B/aqNtZj8F EVtdTT1Q6lgGQa8yw6d4arXOGnaXFSBBgI43kxDyCV0dzJGHIriUEKhZ8qbEt25kX4Rl 3hZO3NMYhYG40RvqipNgM5+nCjZ3Ijd0C/84s= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5waCmsxj4H3YC56MtQNgxRWSXzuvTUA4GXlO5kxIcbc=; b=uG/6B9O78ZgWiMXqU+OLJI+yvxneikBn7V7anEYTyOh9tX8JdzM2KrY/80Y/7fKcV0 VcYdrqp5CwCCrJrEFeip1IU5IzR7xcAtwMmpAg8xanXBMobR4lpwb1RJ7kRw3D+sgpjb JpFU51rx3r2Fw5uGdBmFGwBuw7TU86rFVWaNXPF9GDyP6sXmwwcmAHtqK/gnImQgFTLC e/xvsn6G5i1aTMJ4Epuu/wQPU4gFZO3ljehP/MN4QeVGVduWlibh/aO6Tl1w5vdsayS4 4iBC1RH8HDJGpYKOVmOSWqE0SfI3Y8IHyt0vp/YcgwwCJngP1lJ94gQlyQh3C8lteGHB M3kQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531TIF53BVOQpt0+j9QBTsXSC/h5ymSf/CNbmqzrI9gp5cj+xltw 15DlXd7VvmWOmDXy2fdlB+oYaKTaFWRQBsCsLutboHmrjgc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz5M9ncBY2Oz3tNE42w0Ywjrx9lRkdLPehgwfLZikPggz0ZTm5K4KG3yRRj15Se7XicN+gsMKfVeEBWfkLFGOU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:ec2:: with SMTP id m2mr661472vst.6.1639730176799; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 00:36:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1639678615.275317887@apps.rackspace.com> <1639690165.936410589@apps.rackspace.com> <4927o62q-qq3-p947-qopq-89rppp637497@ynat.uz> <7F1B6B98-2DE2-41A3-B47F-30B46E2736FB@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <7F1B6B98-2DE2-41A3-B47F-30B46E2736FB@gmx.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:36:06 +1300 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: David Lang , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b74ae405d3536eba" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:36:17 -0000 --000000000000b74ae405d3536eba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The XG PON ONT units from Nokia/Huawei are coming with only 10G NbaseT (usually singular port) only in the consumer access space. No SFP+ We have rolled out XG PON on the PON side to 70% of the country here (NZ) over the last 2 years. Only a small % of that are actually making use of the XGPON on the consumer side and retailers vary in offering it as a service mainly due to having to truck roll a new ONT and lack of in home 10G kit on the market. But the access network is there. Similar stories in other regions I know of that offer XGPon - lack of consumer demand, lack of ONTs in the market that are suitable for residential use. On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 9:18 pm Sebastian Moeller, wrote: > To add to Joel's point, > > I can do my own catX cable runs and connect sockets/plugs to the cables, > but I lack the tools for fiber-splicing... as cool as that would be it is > going to be hard to justify multi-100s EUR for a splicer.. That still > leaves short distance in the main computing area of an appartment/house, > but I doubt that many consumers have a concentration high enough to justi= fy > the costs even there. > > What I do see over here in Europe, with FTTH-roll out speeding up, is CPE > that offer SFP/SFP+ cages for the WAN side though, SFP+ becoming more > common since ISPs started to deploy XGS-PON (gross 10Gpbs bidirectionally= , > after FEC ~8.5 Gbps). > > > Regards > Sebastian > > P.S.: I have not started jumping on the 2.5 Gbps or higher train just yet= , > none of my devices seems massively underserved with just 1Gbps yet (with > the potential exception of a single link where >=3D 2Gbps would be nice s= ince > I am one cabe short and >2Gbps would allow to multiplex two 1Gbps > connections over that cable). > > > > On Dec 16, 2021, at 22:57, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling > wrote: > > > > Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average > household structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing > consumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space. > > > > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, wrote: > > another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't > contribute to > > ground loops the way that copper cables can. > > > > and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any electrica= l > > disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry other > equipment > > > > David Lang > > > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote: > > > > > Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has > seemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many failure > points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for distances. > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling" < > joel@aenertia.net> said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( > http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N). > > > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line > with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cage= s > were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a proble= m > with newer kit. > > > It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP > based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the > fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets > were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked > it up after 5 years or feet dragging. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ dpreed@deepplum.com > ]( mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> wrote: > > > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. > > > > > > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a > 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots = of > 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt = 3 > external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC. > > > > > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because > twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gi= g > - mostly due to power and heat. > > > > > > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, > and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. > Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different abo= ut > the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the > ethernet MAC. > > > > > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is > mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacent= er > product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers > and switches. > > > > > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet > Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers who > want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. o= ut > there, it's just a configuration change. > > > > > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? > > > > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ > dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said: > > > > > > > > > > > >> has really got cheap. > > >> > > >> [ https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter > ]( https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ) > > >> > > >> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > > >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved ra= te > > >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > > >> > > >> [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ]( > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ) > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >> [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org = ]( > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ) > > >> > > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto: > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > > >> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ) > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto: > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > > > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > )_______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > --000000000000b74ae405d3536eba Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The XG PON ONT units from Nokia/Huawei are coming with on= ly 10G NbaseT (usually singular port) only in the consumer access space. No= SFP+=C2=A0

We have rolled out= XG PON on the PON side to 70% of the country here=C2=A0 (NZ) over the last= 2 years. Only a small % of that are actually making use of the XGPON on th= e consumer side and retailers vary in offering it as a service mainly due t= o having to truck roll a new ONT and lack of in home 10G kit on the market.= But the access network is there.

Similar stories in other regions I know of that offer XGPon - lac= k of consumer demand, lack of ONTs in the market that are suitable for resi= dential use.


<= div dir=3D"auto">




On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 9:18 pm Sebastian = Moeller, <moeller0@gmx.de> wro= te:
To add to Joel's point,

I can do my own catX cable runs and connect sockets/plugs to the cables, bu= t I lack the tools for fiber-splicing... as cool as that would be it is goi= ng to be hard to justify multi-100s EUR for a splicer.. That still leaves s= hort distance in the main computing area of an appartment/house, but I doub= t that many consumers have a concentration high enough to justify the costs= even there.

What I do see over here in Europe, with FTTH-roll out speeding up, is CPE t= hat offer SFP/SFP+ cages for the WAN side though, SFP+ becoming more common= since ISPs started to deploy XGS-PON (gross 10Gpbs bidirectionally, after = FEC ~8.5 Gbps).


Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian

P.S.: I have not started jumping on the 2.5 Gbps or higher train just yet, = none of my devices seems massively underserved with just 1Gbps yet (with th= e potential exception of a single link where >=3D 2Gbps would be nice si= nce I am one cabe short and >2Gbps would allow to multiplex two 1Gbps co= nnections over that cable).


> On Dec 16, 2021, at 22:57, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling <joel@aenertia.n= et> wrote:
>
> Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average = household structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing co= nsumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space.
>
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, <david@lang.hm> wrote:<= br> > another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't = contribute to
> ground loops the way that copper cables can.
>
> and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any electric= al
> disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry ot= her equipment
>
> David Lang
>
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote:
>
> > Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept = has seemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too = many failure points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium f= or distances.
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pau= ling" <joel@aenertia.net> said:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]= ( http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N).
> > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of lin= e with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cage= s were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a proble= m with newer kit.
> > It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now U= TP based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from = the fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets= were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked = it up after 5 years or feet dragging.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ dpreed@deepp= lum.com ]( mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> wrote:
> > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper.
> >
> > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home ha= s a 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lot= s of 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbo= lt 3 external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC.<= br> > >
> > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling becaus= e twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gi= g - mostly due to power and heat.
> >
> > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/se= c, too, and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rat= es.=C2=A0 Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently d= ifferent about the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate log= ic than the ethernet MAC.
> >
> > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is= mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacente= r product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in compu= ters and switches.
> >
> > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Interne= t Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support cus= tomers who want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOC= SIS 3 CMTS's etc. out there, it's just a configuration change.
> >
> > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig?<= br> > >
> > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <= ;[ dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said:<= br> > >
> >
> >
> >> has really got cheap.
> >>
> >> [ https://w= ww.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ]( https://www.tomshardware.com/news/inn= odisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter )
> >>
> >> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually us= ing
> >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achi= eved rate
> >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit.
> >>
> >> [ https://forum.= mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ]( https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#= p897836 )
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> >> [ https://= wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ]( https://wayforward.archive.org/?si= te=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org )
> >>
> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ](= mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net )
> >> [ https://lists.bufferb= loat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel )
> >> _______________________________________________
> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( m= ailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net )
> > [ https://lists.bufferbloat= .net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( ht= tps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel )___________________= ____________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/= listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/= listinfo/cerowrt-devel

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