From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-vk0-x22a.google.com (mail-vk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 886DF3B2D1; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id n67so63590vkf.3; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=wYA4U9Vfk9JclgXgVH/26IO06B4jgJkkIEby7UeiEjw=; b=srD4nQ0ax82VQqa61/MNj92uACn6wVfo+tRvE6f6/0QvvIzX/2GKB1WTgLi6E4uZ9U 2UEu9PmA7Jg8KzF9u6EIzbjEa8z9+MyTbUOH67g1AvcuM3f+QsJV/8yaeyoJwHu+KHX/ dNCf+zQG+b+I4ECBzSCiUA06XxPPl2zTZ6/8j5zFZmBvU6zCvCEqSVhNxH8jAUhsOdr2 vLEFRj6wgr92D/DzGTXT9kxZ6BtDJJXeCLfOLMniPmlMF9MyFftwewfeJ2QzF62ZMkap 5zF5FIRiY1LamfW1q6OHoE7xZ6TUygoHSmlErh8xW2ZeWejSXuwGWEPxONJDe7q/gnES PRIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=wYA4U9Vfk9JclgXgVH/26IO06B4jgJkkIEby7UeiEjw=; b=luZt7Z5kv+FTUFZft7VdERpZZNw/RGlkrVn2Y3ilRu3AuhgZ81BZYxDaqOKn2MMiY3 mtzh2FVbLGXwAbvVO02r5lqGa4OvIsmENgQTWrmF5HBeUK6s4AXy49P8wo3WPUGNTuXs OEdm9xND5/ObmNimAEojnuBsDbiQbxES9P6qY+rgKRlN6MbRfgmTyV3TYBd9iJpWjur1 +ecCzSuzFPiGO9GhS97gd8Nobw8iWiOB+pgcS3eLaVqIfv5kJkkKsKMFA0KfjfO6qSCn ZJMQfUHr/x/SswGIeXIHkiKFXf+my/5Id6HnjfIHm6NwYeyuynve2bw+zpS5nh5VWbkT bKng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWLnvSsbkDRZum+WqYJH0Q5+FDC03b/ghpXyp0cv/yg1YxPfHQRV/5zkQB/yzOQtoem9RzNrsOcrESSHg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.159.37.100 with SMTP id 91mr16787620uaz.79.1461002617709; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.47.142 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:03:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:03:37 -0700 Message-ID: From: Aaron Wood To: Jonathan Morton Cc: Dave Taht , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c122da40b6f420530c62ed8 Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] USB3 or HDMI ethernet? - Are wires dead? X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 18:03:38 -0000 --94eb2c122da40b6f420530c62ed8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My experiences with users and installers for internet-connected services is that unless it's in the modem/router, immediately next to the modem/router, the wire is dead. For a small apartment dweller who's on cable, with a smart tv, that means that they _can_ wire the tv to the modem (since it's probably also their cable box), and that might be easier than dealing with wifi credentials. But pretty much all other use-cases are wifi. My personal view is that if it doesn't move, it should have a wire (because it needs one anyway). TVs, media-players, cameras, thermostats. If it needs data, and it doesn't run on batteries, we should provide both power and data over the same cable. But then I don't _ever_ want to set another clock. Run an ntpd service within the home, and call it done. Free.fr in Paris used ethernet over powerline with their Freeboxes, to get service from the entry-point to the TV. AT&T is doing the same with their service, as is BT. I'm using a pair of those here to get ethernet out to the office above the garage (with an AP out there). It's only about 100Mbps, but better than wifi extenders by a long shot. Un-bloated power-line-to-AP units would be awesome. As would power-line to POE adapters for small electronics. Although you have the same difficulty with on-boarding there that you do with wifi. -Aaron Wood On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Jonathan Morton wrote: > > > On 18 Apr, 2016, at 17:50, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > But it asks a question - if basic wifi-only + compute has fallen so low= , > is ethernet dead? > > Among the serious PC gaming community, it=E2=80=99s widely recognised tha= t wired > links (both LAN and WAN) have much lower latency and packet loss than > wireless ones. In competitive multiplayer games, this is a serious matte= r, > especially when =E2=80=9Ccompetitive multiplayer=E2=80=9D is ascended to = =E2=80=9CeSports=E2=80=9D. > > That community is one that obsesses about scan and poll frequencies on > their keyboards and mice, refresh rates and display latencies on their > monitors, and all that jazz. You won=E2=80=99t convince them to switch t= o Wifi for > their main battlestation, *even if* the present bloat problems are fixed. > They=E2=80=99ll tolerate it for a laptop on which they do their homework,= that=E2=80=99s > all. > > However it is also true that for a certain type of low-end user, > =E2=80=9Cwireless=E2=80=9D operation is =E2=80=9Csimpler=E2=80=9D and =E2= =80=9Cneater=E2=80=9D, no matter what form it > takes. They hardly even notice any performance problems that come with i= t, > or accept them as a fact of life with "newfangled technological > thingamajigs=E2=80=9D. > > - Jonathan Morton > > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > --94eb2c122da40b6f420530c62ed8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My experiences with users and installers for internet-conn= ected services is that unless it's in the modem/router, immediately nex= t to the modem/router, the wire is dead.=C2=A0 For a small apartment dwelle= r who's on cable, with a smart tv, that means that they _can_ wire the = tv to the modem (since it's probably also their cable box), and that mi= ght be easier than dealing with wifi credentials.=C2=A0 But pretty much all= other use-cases are wifi.

My personal view is that if i= t doesn't move, it should have a wire (because it needs one anyway).=C2= =A0 TVs, media-players, cameras, thermostats.=C2=A0 If it needs data, and i= t doesn't run on batteries, we should provide both power and data over = the same cable.=C2=A0 But then I don't _ever_ want to set another clock= .=C2=A0 Run an ntpd service within the home, and call it done.
Free.fr in Paris used ethernet over powerline with their Freeb= oxes, to get service from the entry-point to the TV.=C2=A0 AT&T is doin= g the same with their service, as is BT.=C2=A0 I'm using a pair of thos= e here to get ethernet out to the office above the garage (with an AP out t= here).=C2=A0 It's only about 100Mbps, but better than wifi extenders by= a long shot.

Un-bloated power-line-to-AP units wo= uld be awesome.=C2=A0 As would power-line to POE adapters for small electro= nics.=C2=A0 Although you have the same difficulty with on-boarding there th= at you do with wifi.

-Aaron Wood

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at= 9:35 AM, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:=

> On 18 Apr, 2016, at 17:50, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> But it asks a question - if basic wifi-only + compute has fallen so lo= w, is ethernet dead?

Among the serious PC gaming community, it=E2=80=99s widely recognise= d that wired links (both LAN and WAN) have much lower latency and packet lo= ss than wireless ones.=C2=A0 In competitive multiplayer games, this is a se= rious matter, especially when =E2=80=9Ccompetitive multiplayer=E2=80=9D is = ascended to =E2=80=9CeSports=E2=80=9D.

That community is one that obsesses about scan and poll frequencies on thei= r keyboards and mice, refresh rates and display latencies on their monitors= , and all that jazz.=C2=A0 You won=E2=80=99t convince them to switch to Wif= i for their main battlestation, *even if* the present bloat problems are fi= xed.=C2=A0 They=E2=80=99ll tolerate it for a laptop on which they do their = homework, that=E2=80=99s all.

However it is also true that for a certain type of low-end user, =E2=80=9Cw= ireless=E2=80=9D operation is =E2=80=9Csimpler=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cneater= =E2=80=9D, no matter what form it takes.=C2=A0 They hardly even notice any = performance problems that come with it, or accept them as a fact of life wi= th "newfangled technological thingamajigs=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0- Jonathan Morton

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