From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-vk1-xa33.google.com (mail-vk1-xa33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26B983B29E for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:12:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa33.google.com with SMTP id m57so5717787vkf.9 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 05:12:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1qMWZ9BgDNeLgh07FEMrPoCT7BeUeKbl2bNDjtzvcPE=; b=HkvkmoE7TiiArEGQ6QDFv5b9ibmryhvKTwlbdTxzMR8cf0iGT0tLn5S4KyiuhwJJmk q/DycHBprWLrivrVhUJ0P15gjVugExaEX1dWq6ItlrkGzxD7dyevuB5zfiAKmabKhw17 qmqk5G2A7WWz1sihJS3YyutAe3iRXhBHn0f/y4tH9FlcAV1gCWQUE5HRxtBxbIu1ewQD oIJGAcghJJx3kwRr2cdFssx9UPJaCpttA6g51+KLd8ADMlRsothHY2mZb06pb09NUicL 3TxzYvk83M4OfG3tdbpS2hczrJkzKFQWplXnVPIQ++CGwm7qRqfGjooxFmZ3DvSgXNjh eydw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1qMWZ9BgDNeLgh07FEMrPoCT7BeUeKbl2bNDjtzvcPE=; b=xE9XIw5hfeGZooIwiyDqqmWkn1qxBmRu/uPYp5Gf++xPoqyvqpMhMyFRS75tfu8d+u kCkf4oqiJV5gAzvIdC0axLrfx6LKrDhc+B1lKVsnHE+DtasTYdYG6moSHAszx4nH9Wm4 8akpi202IH+7UQIsphXvN4Z4YoIYnnKOECS/zTGZQ/rBSgrL3rEaIG/ZRj55qXS3LKIi a/aU9R+vTtZRKuC2iaUkSLtwkhIpGwLtwM73+0KoKNVgmGTqS9iV/F3QI1Y7CtpLrf69 88qU1SYZGPqqi1rVxWYnnIai8W4zPHaKB351TQOPpX2rlw1/Evp2/Y65xCV/4A6xnR69 z+9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5302KCklpgaIk6M8DgrKW3hi1x9ZqCuU/afC/G0E+g+WyJe+qmJP 8wyl8EtN2nwThoD/ebJq2XEeXfhBvk7r7YInnnLuf/f46ABbZw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw1ZHeMq8VsDre/Tu8B+lhcsjHpUr9RfvB/kwE9hiO4MldUOWxirQhvLu3i6sZBh8Uy3BRWemaq50TnT/NPcwc= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:7d02:: with SMTP id y2mr2280105vkc.17.1642165968619; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 05:12:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6D533A43-C4E9-4D48-BC9B-26630F1E17F5@gmx.de> <4F3A4139-6703-467C-832D-3E27294707CE@gmx.de> <15074B17-393D-4167-AE61-A5980C858811@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <15074B17-393D-4167-AE61-A5980C858811@gmx.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jonas_M=C3=A5rtensson?= Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 14:12:37 +0100 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , cerowrt-devel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000038ccac05d58a8f75" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] a smart SFP X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:12:49 -0000 --00000000000038ccac05d58a8f75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Sure, but given that you probably need a few splices along the way and preferably pluggable connectors at both ends the loss budget is not that large (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck and allows for stuff like end-users not cleaning the plug diligently before each plugging). GPON loss budget is 28 dB and typical insertion losses for 1:32 and 1:64 splitters are 17 dB and 21 dB. This leaves 11 dB or 7 dB for splices, connectors and fiber losses. I don't think it's common to have end-users cleaning and plugging in the fiber, this is done by the ISP technician at installation. > Dslreports has no cue what a link is actually using, all it reports wich test profile a user selected, and some users like me ignore the names and simply use/recommend the profile with the desired number of flows. Plus quite a number of dedidedly metallic access technology are marketed with fiber somewhere in the name, potentially confusing users into selecting the "wrong" profile (think Fiber to the Cabinet for copper DSL or even Hybrid-Fiber-Coax for docsis cable)... in short the abels are nice, but I would not read too much inside those. I agree with all these points. It may be better to look at ISPs that are known to only use PON, such as Google Fiber. Here are some recent tests that all show similar and interesting bufferbloat behaviour on the uplink: https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70320015 https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70346586 https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70346578 /Jonas On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:55 PM Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Jonas, > > > > On Jan 14, 2022, at 11:44, Jonas M=C3=A5rtensson > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > getting gpon more right has increasingly been on my mind > > > > I think more right is to not turn the fiber into a shared medium in the > first place but since gpon is so popular, improving it seems like a nice > goal. > > > > > Nobody in their right mind is going to hook up 128 terminalt to one > OLT port, I hope... > > > > Well, sharing one OLT port between many terminals is kind of the (only) > advantage of PON, although split ratios of 32 or 64 are more typical. But > often it's the loss budget that limits the ratio. > > Sure, but given that you probably need a few splices along the wa= y > and preferably pluggable connectors at both ends the loss budget is not > that large (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck and allows for > stuff like end-users not cleaning the plug diligently before each pluggin= g). > > > > > > > Fist question might to be "how broken is GPON/XGPON" to start with, > no? > > > > Looking at dslreports bufferbloat results for fiber, there are many > samples with >250ms latency on the uplink. Unfortunately, this graph > doesn't show results for 500Mbit/s or 1Gbit/s services but it's still > interesting to look at: > > > > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/bufferbloat?up=3D1 > > Dslreports has no cue what a link is actually using, all it > reports wich test profile a user selected, and some users like me ignore > the names and simply use/recommend the profile with the desired number of > flows. Plus quite a number of dedidedly metallic access technology are > marketed with fiber somewhere in the name, potentially confusing users in= to > selecting the "wrong" profile (think Fiber to the Cabinet for copper DSL = or > even Hybrid-Fiber-Coax for docsis cable)... in short the abels are nice, > but I would not read too much inside those. > > > > > > > this thread > https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eigenes-modem-an-ftth-anschluss= -via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ > (in German) has some instructions how to get root on one type of SFP ONU.= .. > > > > Thanks, that's an interesting thread. "Hacking" SFP ONUs seems like a > popular hobby. Here are some other resources I found: > > > > https://github.com/zry98/SFP-GPON-ONU > > https://github.com/hwti/G-010S-A > > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D116364&start=3D300#p771961 > > Thanks for the links! > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > > > > > > > so pulling a testbed together of some sort would be cool, and for > that matter, having a SFP that could go right into a SFP enabled home > router rather than a separate unit seems like a good idea, also > > > > Yes, but ideally I guess you would also need some control of the OLT > side. You may want to look into the VOLTHA project run by ONF: > > > > https://wiki.opennetworking.org/display/COM/VOLTHA > > > > /Jonas > > > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 5:29 PM Sebastian Moeller > wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > > > > On Jan 13, 2022, at 16:59, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 7:57 AM Sebastian Moeller > wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi Dave, > > >> > > >> > > >> this thread > https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eigenes-modem-an-ftth-anschluss= -via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ > (in German) has some instructions how to get root on one type of SFP ONU.= .. > (I was monitoring that thread for general interest, turns out the intel > falcon plattform seems somehow based on an ancient OpenWrt) > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> Sebastian > > > > > > It's really remarkable how many places are running an ancient openwrt= . > > > Starlink's use was not an abomination, but a persistent reality. Give= n > > > how much > > > chaos calmer I've found, I sometimes wish we'd somehow started the > > > cerowrt project 2 years earlier. > > > > Yes and no. > > > > > Then we'd be done by now. > > > > Hopefully, but then I would not have noticed the whole thing an= d > would probably not have participated... ;) > > > > Regards > > Sebastian > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:38, Dave Taht wrote: > > >>> > > >>> And a gpon onu > > >>> > > >>> https://www.fs.com/products/133619.html > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:23 AM Sebastian Moeller > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> That is similar to what happens in some GPON-ONT SFPs, some run a > full small Linux distribution like OpenWrt inside.... though for ethernet > that is unexpected. > > >>>> This is also similar to SFP VDSL "modems" which likely run their > own embedded OS as well inside the SFP package (at a time there was even = a > PCI VDSL2 "modem" that was actually running its own embedded system on th= e > PCI board, IIRC, it pretended to the main computer to be an ethernet NIC)= . > > >>>> > > >>>> Regards > > >>>> Sebastian > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> running linux, of course. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> https://blog.benjojo.co.uk/post/smart-sfp-linux-inside > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>>>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > >>>>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >>> > > >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > --00000000000038ccac05d58a8f75 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0 Sure, but given that you probably need a few splices along the way and pref= erably pluggable connectors at both ends the loss budget is not that large = (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck and allows for stuff like e= nd-users not cleaning the plug diligently before each plugging).

GPON loss budget is 28 dB and typical insertion losses for 1:32 an= d 1:64 splitters are 17 dB and 21 dB. This leaves 11 dB or 7 dB for splices= , connectors and fiber losses. I don't think it's common to have en= d-users cleaning and plugging in the fiber, this is done by the ISP technic= ian at installation.

> Dslreports has no cue wh= at a link is actually using, all it reports wich test profile a user select= ed, and some users like me ignore the names and simply use/recommend the pr= ofile with the desired number of flows. Plus quite a number of dedidedly me= tallic access technology are marketed with fiber somewhere in the name, pot= entially confusing users into selecting the "wrong" profile (thin= k Fiber to the Cabinet for copper DSL or even Hybrid-Fiber-Coax for docsis = cable)... in short the abels are nice, but I would not read too much inside= those.

I agree with all these points. It may be b= etter to look at ISPs that are known to only use PON, such as Google Fiber.= Here are some recent tests that all show similar and interesting bufferblo= at behaviour=C2=A0on the uplink:

https://www.dsl= reports.com/speedtest/70346578

/Jonas

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:55 PM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi Jonas,


> On Jan 14, 2022, at 11:44, Jonas M=C3=A5rtensson <martensson.jonas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> >=C2=A0 getting gpon more right has increasingly been on my mind >
> I think more right is to not turn the fiber into a shared medium in th= e first place but since gpon is so popular, improving it seems like a nice = goal.
>
> > Nobody in their right mind is going to hook up 128 terminalt to o= ne OLT port, I hope...
>
> Well, sharing one OLT port between many terminals is kind of the (only= ) advantage of PON, although split ratios of 32 or 64 are more typical. But= often it's the loss budget that limits the ratio.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sure, but given that you probably need a few sp= lices along the way and preferably pluggable connectors at both ends the lo= ss budget is not that large (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck= and allows for stuff like end-users not cleaning the plug diligently befor= e each plugging).


>
> >=C2=A0 Fist question might to be "how broken is GPON/XGPON&qu= ot; to start with, no?
>
> Looking at dslreports bufferbloat results for fiber, there are many sa= mples with >250ms latency on the uplink. Unfortunately, this graph doesn= 't show results for 500Mbit/s or 1Gbit/s services but it's still in= teresting to look at:
>
> https://www.dslreports.com/speed= test/results/bufferbloat?up=3D1

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dslreports has no cue what a link is actually u= sing, all it reports wich test profile a user selected, and some users like= me ignore the names and simply use/recommend the profile with the desired = number of flows. Plus quite a number of dedidedly metallic access technolog= y are marketed with fiber somewhere in the name, potentially confusing user= s into selecting the "wrong" profile (think Fiber to the Cabinet = for copper DSL or even Hybrid-Fiber-Coax for docsis cable)... in short the = abels are nice, but I would not read too much inside those.


>
> >=C2=A0 this thread https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eige= nes-modem-an-ftth-anschluss-via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ (in German) has= some instructions how to get root on one type of SFP ONU...
>
> Thanks, that's an interesting thread. "Hacking" SFP ONUs= seems like a popular hobby. Here are some other resources I found:
>
> https://github.com/zry98/SFP-GPON-ONU
> https://github.com/hwti/G-010S-A
> https://forum.mikrot= ik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D116364&start=3D300#p771961

Thanks for the links!

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian





>
> > so pulling=C2=A0 a testbed together of some sort would be cool, a= nd for that matter, having a SFP that could go right into a SFP enabled hom= e router rather than a separate unit seems like a good idea, also
>
> Yes, but ideally I guess you would also need some control of the OLT s= ide. You may want to look into the VOLTHA project run by ONF:
>
> https://wiki.opennetworking.org/display/COM/V= OLTHA
>
> /Jonas
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 5:29 PM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
>
>
> > On Jan 13, 2022, at 16:59, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 7:57 AM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote: > >>
> >> Hi Dave,
> >>
> >>
> >> this thread https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eigene= s-modem-an-ftth-anschluss-via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ (in German) has s= ome instructions how to get root on one type of SFP ONU... (I was monitorin= g that thread for general interest, turns out the intel falcon plattform se= ems somehow based on an ancient OpenWrt)
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian
> >
> > It's really remarkable how many places are running an ancient= openwrt.
> > Starlink's use was not an abomination, but a persistent reali= ty. Given
> > how much
> > chaos calmer I've found, I sometimes wish we'd somehow st= arted the
> > cerowrt project 2 years earlier.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes and no.
>
> > Then we'd be done by now.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hopefully, but then I would not have = noticed the whole thing and would probably not have participated... ;)
>
> Regards
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sebastian
>
>
>
> >
> >>
> >>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:38, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:=
> >>>
> >>> And a gpon onu
> >>>
> >>> https://www.fs.com/products/133619.html
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:23 AM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> w= rote:
> >>>>
> >>>> That is similar to what happens in some GPON-ONT SFPs= , some run a full small Linux distribution like OpenWrt inside.... though f= or ethernet that is unexpected.
> >>>> This is also similar to SFP VDSL "modems" w= hich likely run their own embedded OS as well inside the SFP package (at a = time there was even a PCI VDSL2 "modem" that was actually running= its own embedded system on the PCI board, IIRC, it pretended to the main c= omputer to be an ethernet NIC).
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards
> >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sebastian
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:18, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> running linux, of course.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://blog.benjojo= .co.uk/post/smart-sfp-linux-inside
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>>>> https:/= /wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> >>>>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>>>> https://lists.bufferbl= oat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> >>> https://wayforwar= d.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
> >>>
> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> > https://wayforward.archiv= e.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
> >
> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ce= rowrt-devel

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