[Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Alijah Ballard]

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I have a basic setup. Two laptops, a tower in the closet, and a raspi as a
setop box. The raspi is a recent purchase  It is directly connected to my
3800 running CeroWrt Modena 3.7.5-2. I can only connect to other machines
that are simultaneously on a particular interface. Like the laptops on 2.4
ghz can file share, but can not see the tower on 5 ghz. I really need to
ssh into the raspi on eth from 2.4 ghz or 5 ghz. I reinstalled the
firmware, and also reset the setting from the system menu.

In other news this has greatly improved skype and youtube.

Thanks
Alijah

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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Dave Taht]

On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a basic setup. Two laptops, a tower in the closet, and a raspi as a
> setop box. The raspi is a recent purchase  It is directly connected to my
> 3800 running CeroWrt Modena 3.7.5-2. I can only connect to other machines
> that are simultaneously on a particular interface. Like the laptops on 2.4
> ghz can file share, but can not see the tower on 5 ghz.

Not "see the tower" - do  you mean ping? mdns? Some filesharing protocol?

ping, mdns and dns should work through all three interfaces.

If you want to fileshare via cifs (samba/windows), you need to install
samba and enable wins.

> I really need to ssh
> into the raspi on eth from 2.4 ghz or 5 ghz. I reinstalled the firmware, and
> also reset the setting from the system menu.

ssh should work through all interfaces. Several other ports, notably
81 and microsoft filesharing are blocked through the guest interfaces.
See the firewall rules for more details.

>
> In other news this has greatly improved skype and youtube.
>
> Thanks
> Alijah
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>



-- 
Dave Täht

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Dave Taht]

spam filter kills ip addrs and we have a bug tracker that is preferred
for this stuff anyway

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com> wrote:
> okay how do i send config details without the spam filter killing my
> messages.
>
> Alijah
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:45 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Traceroute from my Kubuntu laptop 172.30.42.104 to raspi 172.30.42.15
>> stalls at 172.30.42.97. Ping fails 100%
>>
>> Im trying to make a tcpdump log. tcpdump -n net 172.30.42.0/24 is what i
>> have so far.
>>
>> I get a few of these
>> 08:34:21.812107 IP 172.30.42.104.46216 > 172.30.42.15.22: Flags [S], seq
>> 376121848, win 14600, options [mss 1460,sackOK,TS val 207718595 ecr
>> 0,nop,wscale 10], length 0
>>
>> Thanks for the help so far
>> Alijah
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not clear to me where things are going south. Can you ping the
>>> machines on the other net and are they on the CEROwrt or CEROwrt5
>>> rather than the -guest networks? traceroute? (tracert in windows)
>>>
>>> As for filesharing, you can turn off the port filter entirely in the
>>> firewall on the netbios ports if you want, or explicitly allow them. A
>>> tcpdump at the router on both interfaces would help see what's not
>>> being acked. Another problem is that windows home doesn't do routing
>>> by default...
>>>
>>> I also have wins on by default in /etc/config/dhcp, you either want to
>>> turn it off or to install samba and enable wins (I used to ship samba
>>> by default)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Windows file sharing was with direct IPs. One laptop is windows, the
>>> > tower
>>> > and the other laptop are kubuntu. And I cannot ssh unless i'm on the
>>> > same
>>> > router interface between any of them. Win7 laptop is 2.4 only, HP
>>> > laptop
>>> > (Kubuntu) is 2.4 & 5, tower is kubuntu with 5 ghz 3x mimo (it has the
>>> > antenna at least). I have an old Linksys 2.4 ghz with DD-Wrt I use as a
>>> > wireless bridge in my office/lab. This is why it has taken me awhile to
>>> > diagnose the issue. Can you recommend a command to run to test with.
>>> > SSH
>>> > just time out.
>>> >
>>> > I used the QOS page, started at 16000/4400 and slowly lowered them by
>>> > 50
>>> > until youtube would not stutter with the wife using her win7 laptop.
>>> > Skype
>>> > just seems to degrade less.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:59 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:58 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> > On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> I have a basic setup. Two laptops, a tower in the closet, and a
>>> >> >> raspi
>>> >> >> as a
>>> >> >> setop box. The raspi is a recent purchase  It is directly connected
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >> my
>>> >> >> 3800 running CeroWrt Modena 3.7.5-2. I can only connect to other
>>> >> >> machines
>>> >> >> that are simultaneously on a particular interface. Like the laptops
>>> >> >> on
>>> >> >> 2.4
>>> >> >> ghz can file share, but can not see the tower on 5 ghz.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Not "see the tower" - do  you mean ping? mdns? Some filesharing
>>> >> > protocol?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ping, mdns and dns should work through all three interfaces.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > If you want to fileshare via cifs (samba/windows), you need to
>>> >> > install
>>> >> > samba and enable wins.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> I really need to ssh
>>> >> >> into the raspi on eth from 2.4 ghz or 5 ghz. I reinstalled the
>>> >> >> firmware, and
>>> >> >> also reset the setting from the system menu.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ssh should work through all interfaces. Several other ports, notably
>>> >> > 81 and microsoft filesharing are blocked through the guest
>>> >> > interfaces.
>>> >> > See the firewall rules for more details.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> In other news this has greatly improved skype and youtube.
>>> >>
>>> >> With simple_qos on?
>>> >>
>>> >> I just put out a development release with AQM available via the gui a
>>> >> few days back.
>>> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Thanks
>>> >> >> Alijah
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
>>> >> >> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > Dave Täht
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
>>> >> > http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Dave Täht
>>> >>
>>> >> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
>>> >> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dave Täht
>>>
>>> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
>>> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>>
>>
>



-- 
Dave Täht

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Alijah Ballard]

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Okay, I think i have found a clue.

I swapped the os sd card. I was running the xbmc raspi os(it is to be a set
top box). I put in the dev sd card with raspi debian, so i can install babeld.
And ssh was working again.

damn

seems the issue is rasbmc ssh client

thanks for the help
Alijah


On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, the second email was with my laptop directly connected by Ethernet.
> If both devices are on the same segment (ie, eth, 2.4, 5) I can SSH just
> fine. I might try SSH into router then out to raspi.
> On Apr 30, 2013 9:05 AM, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Huh? These two boxes should be able to reach each other, they are on
>> the same lan. They don't?
>>
>> you sure you have openssh installed and no fws on the boxes?
>> openssh-server is not installed by default on ubuntu...
>>
>> sake of argument, try installing babeld
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:58 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > rockape@CavePC:~$ route
>> > Kernel IP routing table
>> > Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use
>> > Iface
>> > rockape@CavePC:~$
>> >
>> > pi@raspbmc:~$ route
>> > Kernel IP routing table
>> > Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use
>> > Iface
>> > pi@raspbmc:~$
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It will take a bit to get to the raspi. Its in the living room and I
>> need
>> >> a hard wire connection to connect.
>> >>
>> >> One bit.
>> >>
>> >> Alijah
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> well, this stuff works, I use it all the time, so there's a problem
>> >>> elsewhere.
>> >>>
>> >>> what's the other box's routing table?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > Clean install
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> just out of curiousity, did you do a clean install of the
>> firmware, or
>> >>> >> try to preserve original settings?
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com
>> >
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> > I have a basic setup. Two laptops, a tower in the closet, and a
>> >>> >> > raspi as
>> >>> >> > a
>> >>> >> > setop box. The raspi is a recent purchase  It is directly
>> connected
>> >>> >> > to
>> >>> >> > my
>> >>> >> > 3800 running CeroWrt Modena 3.7.5-2. I can only connect to other
>> >>> >> > machines
>> >>> >> > that are simultaneously on a particular interface. Like the
>> laptops
>> >>> >> > on
>> >>> >> > 2.4
>> >>> >> > ghz can file share, but can not see the tower on 5 ghz. I really
>> >>> >> > need to
>> >>> >> > ssh
>> >>> >> > into the raspi on eth from 2.4 ghz or 5 ghz. I reinstalled the
>> >>> >> > firmware,
>> >>> >> > and
>> >>> >> > also reset the setting from the system menu.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > In other news this has greatly improved skype and youtube.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > Thanks
>> >>> >> > Alijah
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
>> >>> >> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> --
>> >>> >> Dave Täht
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
>> >>> >> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Dave Täht
>> >>>
>> >>> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
>> >>> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dave Täht
>>
>> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
>> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>>
>

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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Dave Taht]

cerowrt feels less buggy than the rest of the internet at this point.

It wasn't always that way!

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, I think i have found a clue.
>
> I swapped the os sd card. I was running the xbmc raspi os(it is to be a set
> top box). I put in the dev sd card with raspi debian, so i can install
> babeld. And ssh was working again.
>
> damn
>
> seems the issue is rasbmc ssh client
>
> thanks for the help
> Alijah
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, the second email was with my laptop directly connected by Ethernet.
>> If both devices are on the same segment (ie, eth, 2.4, 5) I can SSH just
>> fine. I might try SSH into router then out to raspi.
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2013 9:05 AM, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Huh? These two boxes should be able to reach each other, they are on
>>> the same lan. They don't?
>>>
>>> you sure you have openssh installed and no fws on the boxes?
>>> openssh-server is not installed by default on ubuntu...
>>>
>>> sake of argument, try installing babeld
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:58 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > rockape@CavePC:~$ route
>>> > Kernel IP routing table
>>> > Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use
>>> > Iface
>>> > rockape@CavePC:~$
>>> >
>>> > pi@raspbmc:~$ route
>>> > Kernel IP routing table
>>> > Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use
>>> > Iface
>>> > pi@raspbmc:~$
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> It will take a bit to get to the raspi. Its in the living room and I
>>> >> need
>>> >> a hard wire connection to connect.
>>> >>
>>> >> One bit.
>>> >>
>>> >> Alijah
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> well, this stuff works, I use it all the time, so there's a problem
>>> >>> elsewhere.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> what's the other box's routing table?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Alijah Ballard <alijahb@gmail.com>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> > Clean install
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>>> >>> > wrote:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> just out of curiousity, did you do a clean install of the
>>> >>> >> firmware, or
>>> >>> >> try to preserve original settings?
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Alijah Ballard
>>> >>> >> <alijahb@gmail.com>
>>> >>> >> wrote:
>>> >>> >> > I have a basic setup. Two laptops, a tower in the closet, and a
>>> >>> >> > raspi as
>>> >>> >> > a
>>> >>> >> > setop box. The raspi is a recent purchase  It is directly
>>> >>> >> > connected
>>> >>> >> > to
>>> >>> >> > my
>>> >>> >> > 3800 running CeroWrt Modena 3.7.5-2. I can only connect to other
>>> >>> >> > machines
>>> >>> >> > that are simultaneously on a particular interface. Like the
>>> >>> >> > laptops
>>> >>> >> > on
>>> >>> >> > 2.4
>>> >>> >> > ghz can file share, but can not see the tower on 5 ghz. I really
>>> >>> >> > need to
>>> >>> >> > ssh
>>> >>> >> > into the raspi on eth from 2.4 ghz or 5 ghz. I reinstalled the
>>> >>> >> > firmware,
>>> >>> >> > and
>>> >>> >> > also reset the setting from the system menu.
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> > In other news this has greatly improved skype and youtube.
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> > Thanks
>>> >>> >> > Alijah
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
>>> >>> >> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> >>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> --
>>> >>> >> Dave Täht
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
>>> >>> >> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Dave Täht
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
>>> >>> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dave Täht
>>>
>>> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
>>> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>
>



-- 
Dave Täht

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html

[Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Kai Yang]

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Just updated to Modena. Now my devices on sw10, sw00 and se00 don't have
access to the others anymore.

Do I need to setup fowarding now? How can I do that?

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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Dave Taht]

you should have forwarding between those devices. However certain
ports ar e blocked by default, notably the web configuration interface
and samba.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Kai Yang <yangk@vt.edu> wrote:
> Just updated to Modena. Now my devices on sw10, sw00 and se00 don't have
> access to the others anymore.
>
> Do I need to setup fowarding now? How can I do that?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>



-- 
Dave Täht

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Kai Yang]

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I installed sugarland again and it made sure that it worked. What is
strange is that when I installed Modena again, I can ping and connect from
sw10 or sw00 to se00 now. Not sure what went wrong the first time.

Thanks for your help Dave.


On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 8:11 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> ok, that's narrower.
>
> Are you saying that a device on sw10 can't like, access a web page on
> a device on se00?
>
> I'll look at it in the morning.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Kai Yang <yangk@vt.edu> wrote:
> > dns and internet is fine. I can't ping from sw10 or sw00 to se00.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 7:46 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hmm. Can't ping? How about getting dns or to the internet?
> >>
> >> I confess to haven't not tested the guest interfaces much in this
> >> release, I generally toss them all into the main "secure" list in
> >> /etc/config/firewall, or delete them entirely.
> >>
> >> I will do a fresh install in the morning and see where I goofed. Thx
> >> for your bug report....
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Kai Yang <yangk@vt.edu> wrote:
> >> > I did a fresh install. Even did a reset after the install.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 7:33 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> By updated to modena, does that mean you did a sysupgrade and tried
> to
> >> >> keep your old config? That has never been made to work. You need to
> do
> >> >> a fresh install.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Kai Yang <yangk@vt.edu> wrote:
> >> >> > Is ping also blocked?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> you should have forwarding between those devices. However certain
> >> >> >> ports ar e blocked by default, notably the web configuration
> >> >> >> interface
> >> >> >> and samba.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Kai Yang <yangk@vt.edu> wrote:
> >> >> >> > Just updated to Modena. Now my devices on sw10, sw00 and se00
> >> >> >> > don't
> >> >> >> > have
> >> >> >> > access to the others anymore.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Do I need to setup fowarding now? How can I do that?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> >> >> >> > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> >> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> Dave Täht
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
> >> >> >> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Dave Täht
> >> >>
> >> >> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
> >> >> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dave Täht
> >>
> >> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
> >> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Täht
>
> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt:
> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
>

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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Forward between wired and wireless devices

[Dave Taht]

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Kai Yang <yangk@vt.edu> wrote:
> Just updated to Modena. Now my devices on sw10, sw00 and se00 don't have
> access to the others anymore.

I am confused. Are you saying that the guest interfaces can't talk to
the secure ones? That's by intent to a large extent. Or are you saying
that you can't ping from se00 to sw10 etc?
>
> Do I need to setup fowarding now? How can I do that?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>



-- 
Dave Täht

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html