From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 035FC3B29E for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:23:34 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1642166613; bh=OmzFEJeKN5YvlVF6JF/Zv8v1LKGx2aT+K0uBlkVkR58=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=PEGnOlbRjfVtLAJRZvJl7lzefHx2VpgYWCTONE+QsMZYRJhQuCLuF9CozAcV+tf9C y9wbgbjRhoAwhhcXu3D/BQYi6hPqWrJ3KAkxv3gGjaI73dw2h3McZe7qxd+VshTa7f CnTwT1oppo67XVnOx4ZjmA24AyweqJARsfb4YWhg= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MvbBk-1mJI8J0iTG-00shKJ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 14:23:33 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 14:23:32 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , cerowrt-devel Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6D533A43-C4E9-4D48-BC9B-26630F1E17F5@gmx.de> <4F3A4139-6703-467C-832D-3E27294707CE@gmx.de> <15074B17-393D-4167-AE61-A5980C858811@gmx.de> To: =?utf-8?Q?Jonas_M=C3=A5rtensson?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:I8rwjJswrjZ0EQnEhMJ8epuZaLzQAcE7PgZlvOTf2GlHjt0L62h haTidQ8o/K12erAGBZHZaq8qNDhk7u+TlYjxEISAjossNDCb3mmBkUjWGxH4MjhaIW1mV+J 5PlIH/Rejg5D3gdv2OUVX/viMpU47pRsfsKFxqkP5zWVfGHU2qj2hsW8toyty6qlkyy+JBz qbHX8FwPKqxwAnCrUJCNA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:kH7t/rDPQe0=:B/Xbeb3fS8VOJ8Nu2ZVib0 LQojyvqTtXcB0LS7fKWp51nZNemCTF2eQmk27UE6jZITP7RuuRFI+uoIXxewZF+zkHU0kIiki UN1cIg9tIfCvD28uTf7prOMGS7WP0ziH0V8szHmCY4z6kXv1PTcrbMyEcj5xUz+phOzb2ewlW 8lM9OZxdnotUMKS3jubjETl8xOcU6j83Z610qCdiiofEDzJV0J5aPEg/maT0JXVmjYfcBsCNK w8sUq9SrmMWh6CsCzasltewprzTEqBQ3Pa3j41D8vZtiFiJX37jjvttJiNyV3PihPqd97sAFC vcYvmQHYw4ToBghhB8ZUWZvpL9FQPX6yKhhYDMyh+pN9QFAyClg87VeY+KEFBxRnwpj91+/yF gmhxFrmYRm6xWDh3CdysfYlGm2idXjkgyra/aPQbzmL0GgC50dDXuEmud2Kr21ey3WQf79aKA hhiikmHmMllJ1VzP5e4V1T1UVRZXgoJseAdlB/cMXEInlffVoaKeQ0qbiynM4frAIlus+Qk7U eeA+mjnVoDHt/7UmMP4dSlU8sZ1YFxxARvxgpqvDess0FnzjxBA60Z4XvgMq73TKcQPsqdkiY OiaxHk6+JOVcdcRtgJQ6fih3gCj/jHZDo1FViDzofFXyiFYzJCqLdPwOidiV7K7VSAXD3DaoX 7sSOGzExb7T1+K6lOscPo0DDbbgPDf1qx+MCBJkRDP5zszIKcVbxhrVtOrlWWqPJzhYQ+hcGB p48KnT8+3lQrjxEyx9d4rpe8szl+BOMW+sxa+nUNgQPOA8lFxpw4ysJrJ7iAwLzFcTlbcERrj JLTxgGNxheoLXH9oy0KEgXeA3r307N3h5PZlXo/lXo4ORkMgxCodoDxjxI8GSR8oO0oz1Dn5d NIzgg9J4y9goq3IcB6UJazYiv4Pl9RQ7/22PQYNq9ckkM/h1SIP9pf7kFmhRIc0ueG1L2reC2 1GI4pO9iVPW9J45sd3/rVSnvO7gdAguEQBmjzmO/cVK3nsqrvx24ZqNztIok4+N1RSZ+CzQ6g Toa8rPn9CqT7aIlLHRR1hrR5K0c26szplu8Ucnq+x+bhZEnw48fJ8eXoVPhciW5Zd2VobJA11 o//MDJ3AO8WWg4= Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] a smart SFP X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:23:35 -0000 Hi Jonas, > On Jan 14, 2022, at 14:12, Jonas M=C3=A5rtensson = wrote: >=20 > > Sure, but given that you probably need a few splices along the way = and preferably pluggable connectors at both ends the loss budget is not = that large (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck and allows = for stuff like end-users not cleaning the plug diligently before each = plugging). >=20 > GPON loss budget is 28 dB and typical insertion losses for 1:32 and = 1:64 splitters are 17 dB and 21 dB. This leaves 11 dB or 7 dB for = splices, connectors and fiber losses. I don't think it's common to have = end-users cleaning and plugging in the fiber, this is done by the ISP = technician at installation. Not all ISPs work with a single level of splitters, some do 1:4 = and split each of the four up into more later, I would guess that 1:4 + = 1:8 will have a bigger aggregate attenuation than going 1:32 directly, = but I am guessing here, so thanks for the numbers. In Germany the law is = as it is and requires a passive handover point of an ISPs network to the = home network and also the freedom to choose routers (and probably also = ONTs/ONUs but that is still in flux), so plugs will be common as will be = exchange of ONTs/ONUs by end-users. Whether that is a good or a bad = thins is open for discussion, but as an ISP I would try to plan my PON = plant such that there would be more loss reserve for these final = connections than would be if these would be performed and documented by = trained technicians. (I think that might be one of the consequences of = deploying FTTH in the mass market, solutions need to be a bit more error = tolerant than for networks mainly handled by experts only.) >=20 > > Dslreports has no cue what a link is actually using, all it reports = wich test profile a user selected, and some users like me ignore the = names and simply use/recommend the profile with the desired number of = flows. Plus quite a number of dedidedly metallic access technology are = marketed with fiber somewhere in the name, potentially confusing users = into selecting the "wrong" profile (think Fiber to the Cabinet for = copper DSL or even Hybrid-Fiber-Coax for docsis cable)... in short the = abels are nice, but I would not read too much inside those. >=20 > I agree with all these points. It may be better to look at ISPs that = are known to only use PON, such as Google Fiber. Here are some recent = tests that all show similar and interesting bufferbloat behaviour on the = uplink: >=20 > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70320015 > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70346586 > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/70346578 Thanks! Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > /Jonas >=20 > On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 12:55 PM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > Hi Jonas, >=20 >=20 > > On Jan 14, 2022, at 11:44, Jonas M=C3=A5rtensson = wrote: > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > > getting gpon more right has increasingly been on my mind > >=20 > > I think more right is to not turn the fiber into a shared medium in = the first place but since gpon is so popular, improving it seems like a = nice goal. > >=20 > > > Nobody in their right mind is going to hook up 128 terminalt to = one OLT port, I hope... > >=20 > > Well, sharing one OLT port between many terminals is kind of the = (only) advantage of PON, although split ratios of 32 or 64 are more = typical. But often it's the loss budget that limits the ratio. >=20 > Sure, but given that you probably need a few splices along the = way and preferably pluggable connectors at both ends the loss budget is = not that large (assuming an ISP does not want to push its luck and = allows for stuff like end-users not cleaning the plug diligently before = each plugging). >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > > Fist question might to be "how broken is GPON/XGPON" to start = with, no? > >=20 > > Looking at dslreports bufferbloat results for fiber, there are many = samples with >250ms latency on the uplink. Unfortunately, this graph = doesn't show results for 500Mbit/s or 1Gbit/s services but it's still = interesting to look at: > >=20 > > https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/bufferbloat?up=3D1 >=20 > Dslreports has no cue what a link is actually using, all it = reports wich test profile a user selected, and some users like me ignore = the names and simply use/recommend the profile with the desired number = of flows. Plus quite a number of dedidedly metallic access technology = are marketed with fiber somewhere in the name, potentially confusing = users into selecting the "wrong" profile (think Fiber to the Cabinet for = copper DSL or even Hybrid-Fiber-Coax for docsis cable)... in short the = abels are nice, but I would not read too much inside those. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > > this thread = https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eigenes-modem-an-ftth-anschluss-= via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ (in German) has some instructions how to get = root on one type of SFP ONU... > >=20 > > Thanks, that's an interesting thread. "Hacking" SFP ONUs seems like = a popular hobby. Here are some other resources I found: > >=20 > > https://github.com/zry98/SFP-GPON-ONU > > https://github.com/hwti/G-010S-A > > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D116364&start=3D300#p77196= 1 >=20 > Thanks for the links! >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > > so pulling a testbed together of some sort would be cool, and for = that matter, having a SFP that could go right into a SFP enabled home = router rather than a separate unit seems like a good idea, also > >=20 > > Yes, but ideally I guess you would also need some control of the OLT = side. You may want to look into the VOLTHA project run by ONF: > >=20 > > https://wiki.opennetworking.org/display/COM/VOLTHA > >=20 > > /Jonas > >=20 > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 5:29 PM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > > Hi Dave, > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > On Jan 13, 2022, at 16:59, Dave Taht wrote: > > >=20 > > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 7:57 AM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > > >>=20 > > >> Hi Dave, > > >>=20 > > >>=20 > > >> this thread = https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/eigenes-modem-an-ftth-anschluss-= via-sfp-gpon-modul.2061989/ (in German) has some instructions how to get = root on one type of SFP ONU... (I was monitoring that thread for general = interest, turns out the intel falcon plattform seems somehow based on an = ancient OpenWrt) > > >>=20 > > >> Regards > > >> Sebastian > > >=20 > > > It's really remarkable how many places are running an ancient = openwrt. > > > Starlink's use was not an abomination, but a persistent reality. = Given > > > how much > > > chaos calmer I've found, I sometimes wish we'd somehow started the > > > cerowrt project 2 years earlier. > >=20 > > Yes and no. > >=20 > > > Then we'd be done by now. > >=20 > > Hopefully, but then I would not have noticed the whole thing = and would probably not have participated... ;) > >=20 > > Regards > > Sebastian=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > > >>=20 > > >>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:38, Dave Taht = wrote: > > >>>=20 > > >>> And a gpon onu > > >>>=20 > > >>> https://www.fs.com/products/133619.html > > >>>=20 > > >>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 6:23 AM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > > >>>>=20 > > >>>> That is similar to what happens in some GPON-ONT SFPs, some run = a full small Linux distribution like OpenWrt inside.... though for = ethernet that is unexpected. > > >>>> This is also similar to SFP VDSL "modems" which likely run = their own embedded OS as well inside the SFP package (at a time there = was even a PCI VDSL2 "modem" that was actually running its own embedded = system on the PCI board, IIRC, it pretended to the main computer to be = an ethernet NIC). > > >>>>=20 > > >>>> Regards > > >>>> Sebastian > > >>>>=20 > > >>>>=20 > > >>>>=20 > > >>>>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 15:18, Dave Taht = wrote: > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>> running linux, of course. > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>> https://blog.benjojo.co.uk/post/smart-sfp-linux-inside > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>>>> = https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > >>>>> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > >>>>=20 > > >>>=20 > > >>>=20 > > >>> -- > > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >>>=20 > > >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >>=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >=20 > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >=20