From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from pacdcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (PACDCMHOUT01.cable.comcast.com [68.87.31.167]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F12B21F333; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 13:00:07 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 44571fa7-f799b6d000002f25-f6-550b2a7adb60 Received: from pacdcexhub04.cable.comcast.com (pacdcexhub04.cable.comcast.com [24.40.56.121]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by pacdcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id 21.2C.12069.A7A2B055; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PACDCEXMB06.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.8.192]) by pacdcexhub04.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::1532:d330:f9a5:c8a1%18]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:58:50 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Dave Taht , David Reed , bloat Thread-Topic: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] DOCSIS 3+ recommendation? Thread-Index: AQHQYmfhCPgT+qZxsUizUPkGwgB0iZ0kOWSA Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 19:58:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150316203532.05BD21E2@taggart.lackof.org> <123130.1426635142@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> <15A0911A-E3B7-440A-A26B-C5E1489EA98B@viagenie.ca> <1426773234.362612992@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.8.150116 x-originating-ip: [24.40.1.141] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrNIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUioWFRqVutxR1q8PM+i0X/r/usFn1fd7JY rPjax+TA7LH94hkmj097njAFMEVx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZaw8+pyx4LFMxdzj3A2M38W6GDk5 JARMJFa0N7JB2GISF+6tB7K5OIQEtjFJ7N6zmRnCOcQo8fZiJytIFZuAjcT0bUeZQWwRgQyJ TTsvs4PYzAKBErPmrgarERawk3jVuYgVosZeYtbPWVC2kUTP9AtgvSwCqhKTnj8Bs3mB6hc+ 2cgIsewcs8TOjS/BGjiBhv7/fA2siBHovO+n1jBBLBOXuPVkPhPE2QISS/acZ4awRSVePv4H 1isqoCdxaNZHFoi4vERT03SoQw0k3p+bzwxhO0gcP76RFcLWlli28DXUQYISJ2c+YZnAKDEL ybpZSNpnIWmfhaR9FpL2BYysqxjlChKTU5JzM/JLSwwM9ZITk3JS9ZLzc5MTi0tA9CZGYJS6 hMsv38F474XTIUYBDkYlHt7v0tyhQqyJZcWVucCw52BWEuHdpAkU4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+ xCjNwaIkznusjSNUSCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUIJsvEwSnVwHh0wskcp3MJX27sK1nQtU/pTuHOLRPd fBh4rVSbpu1WfS5pYvJyAxPjgj7p66HWxY3i98+JaX267vru/r/2hpqwVLugVzyqMiW7NpVk fnvDdujLslyJ+1O+MszS15vcVuLA8PEVf3Poig8Pv39bxTFXXGPZko9bsjKrvTh/WpQ8fCgx WdhNx0CJpTgj0VCLuag4EQAJw6KTzgIAAA== X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 13:09:09 -0700 Cc: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] DOCSIS 3+ recommendation? X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:00:37 -0000 On 3/19/15, 1:11 PM, "Dave Taht" wrote: >On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 6:53 AM, wrote: >> How many years has it been since Comcast said they were going to fix >>bufferbloat in their network within a year? I=B9m not sure anyone ever said it=B9d take a year. If someone did (even if= it was me) then it was in the days when the problem appeared less complicated than it is and I apologize for that. Let=B9s face it - the problem is complex and the software that has to be fixed is everywhere. As I said about IPv6: if it were easy, it=B9d be done by now. ;-) >>It's almost as if the cable companies don't want OTT video or >>simultaneous FTP and interactive gaming to work. Of course not. They'd >>never do that. Sorry, but that seems a bit unfair. It flies in the face of what we have done and are doing. We=B9ve underwritten some of Dave=B9s work, we got CableLabs to underwrite AQM work, and I personally pushed like heck to get AQM built into the default D3.1 spec (had CTO-level awareness & support, and was due to Greg White=B9s work at CableLabs). We are starting to field test D3.1 gear now, by the way. We made some bad bets too, such as trying to underwrite an OpenWRT-related program with ISC, but not every tactic will always be a winner. As for existing D3.0 gear, it=B9s not for lack of trying. Has any DOCSIS network of any scale in the world solved it? If so, I have something to use to learn from and apply here at Comcast - and I=B9d **love** an introduction to someone who has so I can get this info. But usually there are rational explanations for why something is still not done. One of them is that the at-scale operational issues are more complicated that some people realize. And there is always a case of prioritization - meaning things like running out of IPv4 addresses and not having service trump more subtle things like buffer bloat (and the effort to get vendors to support v6 has been tremendous). >I do understand there are strong forces against us, especially in the USA. I=B9m not sure there are any forces against this issue. It=B9s more a quest= ion of awareness - it is not apparent it is more urgent than other work in everyone=B9s backlog. For example, the number of ISP customers even aware o= f buffer bloat is probably 0.001%; if customers aren=B9t asking for it, the product managers have a tough time arguing to prioritize buffer bloat work over new feature X or Y. One suggestion I have made to increase awareness is that there be a nice, web-based, consumer-friendly latency under load / bloat test that you could get people to run as they do speed tests today. (If someone thinks they can actually deliver this, I will try to fund it - ping me off-list.) I also think a better job can be done explaining buffer bloat - it=B9s hard to make an =8Celevator pitch=B9 about it. It reminds me a bit of IPv6 several years ago. Rather than saying in essence =8Cyou operators are dummies=B9 for not already fixing this, maybe assume the engineers all =8Cget it=B9 and what to do it. Because we really = do get it and want to do something about it. Then ask those operators what they need to convince their leadership and their suppliers and product managers and whomever else that it needs to be resourced more effectively (see above for example). We=B9re at least part of the way there in DOCSIS networks. It is in D3.1 by default, and we=B9re starting trials now. And probably within 18-24 months we won=B9t buy any DOCSIS CPE that is not 3.1. The question for me is how and when to address it in DOCSIS 3.0. - Jason