From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB3513B29D; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 04:26:39 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1639733188; bh=dGjYhfCDyoN9PToL5f1L+kBF6E/IyQawV+0M+9myZoE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=JH8JZH2Hgp+JbA36RNUTEcfETOWlQytp8yuXkM/SkZZ0eyJQqBMlc2IYzOxdWw+DJ 5rYrQZfxwwoVHPUTx+VtILiT1Ce3sHCA4UpKxZTyWJWVQvLprNkpjo6pM1aU/fAw86 TaIVjYwFYI+J5Siil4jcly6sojUoyA5Wfg0YYEGg= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MMGN2-1nF7rO0Oj0-00JIip; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:26:28 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:26:26 +0100 Cc: David Lang , cerowrt-devel , Cake List , Jonathan Morton Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1639678615.275317887@apps.rackspace.com> <1639690165.936410589@apps.rackspace.com> <4927o62q-qq3-p947-qopq-89rppp637497@ynat.uz> <7F1B6B98-2DE2-41A3-B47F-30B46E2736FB@gmx.de> To: =?utf-8?Q?Joel_Wir=C4=81mu_Pauling?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:oreziL/YpX5QXRfb4XMPfOaZ3zOqgGUcXcoe/zIxf9O2qLldT9/ FHYVwWJKcCHoxqHS+WELSa7ncxqxNzFZZBqnkuS4E7jVo5hQPaOyUd4dO494o+w7F3/EWzA iifVU4gd0GVLL6r0xYalTHzMLNFqkHDrQF8psPXXyRoHbFoyYrqcXEep6ZOzAYBnqRJLLfh FI7h9czooHNCaxd/Q3PAw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:pmzks+gg1co=:n3DtOt0rlTxWal/U89q/d9 SCEGLoYJPyKBpXyhO9g5uf6aRMFZKziTE68d7XiDlv8w1ED4NDZafYLa3UW4PrYyq4tqyNIDJ cxtNwD9t76YWp5MWVkpoOA1jE+/AV1kHnzzjBhtMP87+0JFvt6uogKwXLSUYqLwzgIPeDjIcS b0MsGwvPVoaWsobBVSQMeOWR43r3fuQitfbN0ihSV94cXFM7/A6yPYckmVtthHVgqY+sp+k3O ZSbiR1ySZyKkDkZzqct2CYDTtwcqt/EO7pp4sAySk5K8MLf2XbQW0zM3cEeoJXOKxi+eZDCxL /fXGsDHQ6WEcwOTKr/yca7TEa8/ooeRjPy7M5G0KTAPv5S+a+vQX76z4oxZeQWDhSsj6UYtqK ElDaqKt6qyjqdk/K2A6d59J8O0w2CdRjHBcqdxg5pXgqCzf9UlU5KjTgMD7iAz/lpwlDM90jh UxtMMguWZ8cVHNZGcbgDTnHOGlEsmYWhoBxyXpzxQHjAzP7tZ2WMS7lnjN8AXa6hnGwhWKjD0 7WHWvO74M8h1ijKSOcKJvJAknrg9Kee1SggUP/zLHIcUzNlu93fS9VJsNF3fiLfiU3vtCfTVQ nABBn9tIK2XNwQ0MdIK2HgmprP1UxQUP+oZjqacda18BoBhk1DH6DCGKHdCQsmIR7+/pKhrAO jkeMeg0cOmQouxoIweKcC6zRa+zY2yuQSyW9mPofNJIjwjuY6N4fuWzGv68pii/Z2QqLg9/1t UB7k4MrK+A8HNq9s5oIb3scAf2kZf28jQZMK7VAigENLjTQsXT2tn3S/s0QTVtRdj8jlx0fik DdVCsGIpXejfPHh9Zo/JwtRJC3Y03Tfzy4mIXM0lUHiFQB7Y+EmQv/YPzZUqesLOQ5u/6KElB dYj5/ce5FwaO8iLAw3ltYrvHG5gLyMgeaUN5sS56QTKv8YIU13oHYEHSNDgeGeuJiKNu51Lon 0IN4EBB/LDDzyt2Un9tuEPP2HuoK7CDW4OGKf/c/DU6hoFCVrdkOHLfXEhTMGp0DjP/r017R+ hJvGJOm6I6sVqd42t9AjFmWVA/3CR/OL5vhA+f08Xok5DtyHoLM9SMCJW9R/kQDDKpMmwprIc uDUTRMPInbHWYw= Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:26:40 -0000 Mmmh, I guess our approach at traffic shaping does not scale well at = those speeds. Maybe this could be fixed with larger batching? I think it might be worth trying to switch to simple.qos/fq_codel and = set a somewhat larger burst/quantum duration in defaults.sh, then = disable BQL on the NIC and configure a beefy txqueuelen on the = interface. This might help making SQM limp along to higher rates. If = that would actually work, we could try to see whether we can make cake = learn coarser batching ("bursts" and/or quantum) at high rates (but I = did not check what cake does internally, it might already do this, = @jonathan?).... Regards Sebastian > On Dec 17, 2021, at 09:39, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling = wrote: >=20 > Completely aside I have never got Cake SQM to work with connection's = beyond about a gigabit biderectional ; without loosing gigabits of = throughput even when running on beefy hardware. Has been a problem here = for some time now. >=20 > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 9:36 pm Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling, = wrote: > The XG PON ONT units from Nokia/Huawei are coming with only 10G NbaseT = (usually singular port) only in the consumer access space. No SFP+=20 >=20 > We have rolled out XG PON on the PON side to 70% of the country here = (NZ) over the last 2 years. Only a small % of that are actually making = use of the XGPON on the consumer side and retailers vary in offering it = as a service mainly due to having to truck roll a new ONT and lack of in = home 10G kit on the market. But the access network is there. >=20 > Similar stories in other regions I know of that offer XGPon - lack of = consumer demand, lack of ONTs in the market that are suitable for = residential use. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 9:18 pm Sebastian Moeller, = wrote: > To add to Joel's point, >=20 > I can do my own catX cable runs and connect sockets/plugs to the = cables, but I lack the tools for fiber-splicing... as cool as that would = be it is going to be hard to justify multi-100s EUR for a splicer.. That = still leaves short distance in the main computing area of an = appartment/house, but I doubt that many consumers have a concentration = high enough to justify the costs even there. >=20 > What I do see over here in Europe, with FTTH-roll out speeding up, is = CPE that offer SFP/SFP+ cages for the WAN side though, SFP+ becoming = more common since ISPs started to deploy XGS-PON (gross 10Gpbs = bidirectionally, after FEC ~8.5 Gbps). >=20 >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 > P.S.: I have not started jumping on the 2.5 Gbps or higher train just = yet, none of my devices seems massively underserved with just 1Gbps yet = (with the potential exception of a single link where >=3D 2Gbps would be = nice since I am one cabe short and >2Gbps would allow to multiplex two = 1Gbps connections over that cable). >=20 >=20 > > On Dec 16, 2021, at 22:57, Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling = wrote: > >=20 > > Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average = household structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing = consumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space. > >=20 > > On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, wrote: > > another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't = contribute to=20 > > ground loops the way that copper cables can. > >=20 > > and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any = electrical=20 > > disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry = other equipment > >=20 > > David Lang > >=20 > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote: > >=20 > > > Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has = seemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many = failure points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for = distances. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wir=C4=81mu Pauling" = said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( = http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N).=20 > > > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line = with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ = cages were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a = problem with newer kit. > > > It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now = UTP based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from = the fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC = chipsets were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have = finally picked it up after 5 years or feet dragging.=20 > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ = dpreed@deepplum.com ]( mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com )> wrote: > > > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. > > >=20 > > > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has = a 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, = lots of 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a = Thunderbolt 3 external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull = Canyon NUC. > > >=20 > > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because = twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 = Gig - mostly due to power and heat. > > >=20 > > > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, = too, and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher = rates. Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently = different about the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate = logic than the ethernet MAC. > > >=20 > > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is = mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a = datacenter product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 = in computers and switches. > > >=20 > > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet = Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers = who want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's = etc. out there, it's just a configuration change.=20 > > >=20 > > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? > > >=20 > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ = dave.taht@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com )> said: > > > > > > > > > > > >> has really got cheap. > > >>=20 > > >> [ = https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ]( = https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ) > > >>=20 > > >> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > > >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved = rate > > >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > > >>=20 > > >> [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ]( = https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D179145#p897836 ) > > >>=20 > > >>=20 > > >> -- > > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >> [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org= ]( https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ) > > >>=20 > > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( = mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > > >> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ) > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( = mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > > > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel = )_______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel >=20