From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "alln-iport.cisco.com", Issuer "Cisco SSCA2" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAAB721F2AD; Sat, 28 Jun 2014 17:50:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6467; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1404003056; x=1405212656; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=e0gcwt58Ik3PGpmkJPItNWIu+RS5SdMor+Svx2a65ic=; b=e9YORGWWb7NLvGsJjynVDq20cPaEFcHyB96a20LK2PyOWuXXKXcGy97U 0drbZfQszrpbH7xZp0trbyBXsuKnFwnlt8lL+Fpbk+l1G7ahbq07iGIqv 7FHUxogHJpAhFpN6IVbYAuFbDplKFzOAzp1ksYPD2Gve8Pzo8K1AfzEU/ 8=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah0FAAtir1OtJV2c/2dsb2JhbABaCoMDUlquHpcqAYEIFlwZhAMBAQEDASckAS0FCwIBCBMzIQQNJQIEDgUOiCADCQgNrmsBC5AhDYZSF4xKFoInBwmDJIEWBYRjAo0qgUMDhQuBfoFGjCWGEoFEgX5sAQEBgUE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,568,1400025600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="56762473" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Jun 2014 00:50:53 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x12.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x12.cisco.com [173.37.183.86]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s5T0orkO025057 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 29 Jun 2014 00:50:53 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([169.254.9.143]) by xhc-rcd-x12.cisco.com ([173.37.183.86]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Sat, 28 Jun 2014 19:50:53 -0500 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: Dave Taht Thread-Topic: [Bloat] viability of the data center in the internet of the future Thread-Index: AQHPko2q8vKJMWZ/uUy0ibP3+Degk5uHlw4A Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 00:50:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.116] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D4C78A40-AE37-4CAD-ABAB-975C52F14C40"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: cerowrt-devel , bloat Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] viability of the data center in the internet of the future X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 00:50:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D4C78A40-AE37-4CAD-ABAB-975C52F14C40 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Jun 27, 2014, at 9:58 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > One of the points in the wired article that kicked this thread off was > this picture of what the internet is starting to look like: >=20 > http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/net_neutral.jpg.jpeg >=20 > I don't want it to look like that. Well, I think trying to describe the Internet in those terms is a lot = like half a dozen blind men describing an elephant. The picture makes a = point, and a good one. But it=92s also wildly inaccurate. It depends on = which blind man you ask. And they=92ll all be right, from their = perspective. There is in fact a backbone. Once upon a time, it was run by a single = company, BBN. Then it was more like five, and then ... and now it=92s = 169. There are, if the BGP report = (http://seclists.org/nanog/2014/Jun/495) is to be believed, 47136 ASNs = in the system, of which 35929 don=92t show up as transit for anyone and = are therefore presumably edge networks and potentially multihomed, and = of those 16325 only announce a single prefix. Of the 6101 ASNs that show = up as transit, 169 ONLY show up as transit. Yes, the core is 169 ASNs, = and it=92s not a little dot off to the side. If you want to know where = it is, do a traceroute (tracery on windows). I=92ll give you two, one through Cisco and one through my residential = provider. traceroute to reed.com (67.223.249.82), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets 1 sjc-fred-881.cisco.com (10.19.64.113) 1.289 ms 12.000 ms 1.130 ms 2 sjce-access-hub1-tun10.cisco.com (10.27.128.1) 47.661 ms 45.281 ms = 42.995 ms 3 ... 11 sjck-isp-gw1-ten1-1-0.cisco.com (128.107.239.217) 44.972 ms 45.094 = ms 43.670 ms 12 tengige0-2-0-0.gw5.scl2.alter.net (152.179.99.153) 48.806 ms = 49.338 ms 47.975 ms 13 0.xe-9-1-0.br1.sjc7.alter.net (152.63.51.101) 43.998 ms 45.595 ms = 49.838 ms 14 206.111.6.121.ptr.us.xo.net (206.111.6.121) 52.110 ms 45.492 ms = 47.373 ms 15 207.88.14.225.ptr.us.xo.net (207.88.14.225) 126.696 ms 124.374 ms = 127.983 ms 16 te-2-0-0.rar3.washington-dc.us.xo.net (207.88.12.70) 127.639 ms = 132.965 ms 131.415 ms 17 te-3-0-0.rar3.nyc-ny.us.xo.net (207.88.12.73) 129.747 ms 125.680 = ms 123.907 ms 18 ae0d0.mcr1.cambridge-ma.us.xo.net (216.156.0.26) 125.009 ms = 123.152 ms 126.992 ms 19 ip65-47-145-6.z145-47-65.customer.algx.net (65.47.145.6) 118.244 ms = 118.024 ms 117.983 ms 20 * * * 21 209.59.211.175 (209.59.211.175) 119.378 ms * 122.057 ms 22 reed.com (67.223.249.82) 120.051 ms 120.146 ms 118.672 ms traceroute to reed.com (67.223.249.82), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets 1 10.0.2.1 (10.0.2.1) 1.728 ms 1.140 ms 1.289 ms 2 10.6.44.1 (10.6.44.1) 122.289 ms 126.330 ms 14.782 ms 3 ip68-4-12-20.oc.oc.cox.net (68.4.12.20) 13.208 ms 12.667 ms 8.941 = ms 4 ip68-4-11-96.oc.oc.cox.net (68.4.11.96) 17.025 ms 13.911 ms = 13.835 ms 5 langbprj01-ae1.rd.la.cox.net (68.1.1.13) 131.855 ms 14.677 ms = 129.860 ms 6 68.105.30.150 (68.105.30.150) 16.750 ms 31.627 ms 130.134 ms 7 ae11.cr2.lax112.us.above.net (64.125.21.173) 40.754 ms 31.873 ms = 130.246 ms 8 ae3.cr2.iah1.us.above.net (64.125.21.85) 162.884 ms 77.157 ms = 69.431 ms 9 ae14.cr2.dca2.us.above.net (64.125.21.53) 97.115 ms 113.428 ms = 80.068 ms 10 ae8.mpr4.bos2.us.above.net.29.125.64.in-addr.arpa (64.125.29.33) = 109.957 ms 124.964 ms 122.447 ms 11 * 64.125.69.90.t01470-01.above.net (64.125.69.90) 86.163 ms = 103.232 ms 12 250.252.148.207.static.yourhostingaccount.com (207.148.252.250) = 111.068 ms 119.984 ms 114.022 ms 13 209.59.211.175 (209.59.211.175) 103.358 ms 87.412 ms 86.345 ms 14 reed.com (67.223.249.82) 87.276 ms 102.752 ms 86.800 ms Cisco->AlterNet->XO->ALGX is one path, and Cox->AboveNet->Presumably = ALGX is another. They both traverse the core. Going to bufferbloat.net, I actually do skip the core in one path. = Through Cisco, I go through core site and hurricane electric and finally = into ISC. ISC, it turns out, is a Cox customer; taking my residential = path, since Cox serves us both, the traffic never goes upstream from = Cox. Yes, there are CDNs. I don=92t think you=92d like the way Video/IP and = especially adaptive bitrate video - Netflix, Youtube, etc - worked if = they didn=92t exist. Akamai is probably the prototypical one, and when = they deployed theirs it made the Internet quite a bit snappier - and = that helped the economics of Internet sales. Google and Facebook = actually do operate large data centers, but a lot of their common = content (or at least Google=92s) is in CDNlets. NetFlix uses several = CDNs, or so I=92m told; the best explanation I have found of their = issues with Comcast and Level 3 is at = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DtR1sLLOYxnY (and it has imperfections). = And yes, part of the story is business issues over CDNs. Netflix=92s = data traverses the core once to each CDN download server, and from the = server to its customers. The IETF uses a CDN, as of recently. It=92s called Cloudflare. One of the places I worry is Chrome and Silk=92s SPDY Proxies, which are = somewhere in Google and Amazon respectively. Chrome and Silk send https = and SPDY traffic directly to the targeted service, but http traffic to = their proxies, which do their magic and send the result back. One of the = potential implications is that instead of going to the CDN nearest me, = it then goes to the CDN nearest the proxy. That=92s not good for me. I = just hope that the CDNs I use accept https from me, because that will = give me the best service (and btw encrypts my data). Blind men and elephants, and they=92re all right. --Apple-Mail=_D4C78A40-AE37-4CAD-ABAB-975C52F14C40 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iD8DBQFTr2LqbjEdbHIsm0MRAvRdAJ0aAsHcUCKge9SK/twaFOUG+ShO4wCgh5f/ qbMlSOCxTF3YoePtyDHbB4M= =Etvr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D4C78A40-AE37-4CAD-ABAB-975C52F14C40--