From: Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
To: Bob McMahon <bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com>
Cc: "David P. Reed" <dpreed@deepplum.com>,
"Cake List" <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"Valdis Klētnieks" <valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu>,
Make-Wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net,
codel <codel@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"Matt Mathis" <mattmathis@google.com>,
cerowrt-devel <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
"Steve Crocker" <steve@shinkuro.com>,
"Vint Cerf" <vint@google.com>,
"Neal Cardwell" <ncardwell@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT applied to e2e TCP msg latency
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 20:11:07 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <E3373586-EF4C-40DF-885B-0D6134E6EAF1@apple.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHb6Lvp1dxnbuCNiE5FKC-yRyD6HGkb0H1ZQAm_nSxANwJg2pA@mail.gmail.com>
On 21 Oct 2021, at 17:51, Bob McMahon via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Sorry for the spam. I'm trying to support a meaningful TCP message latency w/iperf 2 from the sender side w/o requiring e2e clock synchronization. I thought I'd try to use the TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT event to help with this. It seems that this event goes off when the bytes are in flight vs have reached the destination network stack. If that's the case, then iperf 2 client (sender) may be able to produce the message latency by adding the drain time (write start to TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT) and the sampled RTT.
>
> Does this seem reasonable?
I’m not 100% sure what you’re asking, but I will try to help.
When you set TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT, the TCP implementation won’t report your endpoint as writable (e.g., via kqueue or epoll) until less than that threshold of data remains unsent. It won’t stop you writing more bytes if you want to, up to the socket send buffer size, but it won’t *ask* you for more data until the TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT threshold is reached. In other words, the TCP implementation attempts to keep BDP bytes in flight + TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT bytes buffered and ready to go. The BDP of bytes in flight is necessary to fill the network pipe and get good throughput. The TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT of bytes buffered and ready to go is provided to give the source software some advance notice that the TCP implementation will soon be looking for more bytes to send, so that the buffer doesn’t run dry, thereby lowering throughput. (The old SO_SNDBUF option conflates both “bytes in flight” and “bytes buffered and ready to go” into the same number.)
If you wait for the TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT notification, write a chunk of n bytes of data, and then wait for the next TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT notification, that will tell you roughly how long it took n bytes to depart the machine. You won’t know why, though. The bytes could depart the machine in response for acks indicating that the same number of bytes have been accepted at the receiver. But the bytes can also depart the machine because CWND is growing. Of course, both of those things are usually happening at the same time.
How to use TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT is explained in this video:
<https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2015/719/?time=2199>
Later in the same video is a two-minute demo (time offset 42:00 to time offset 44:00) showing a “before and after” demo illustrating the dramatic difference this makes for screen sharing responsiveness.
<https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2015/719/?time=2520>
Stuart Cheshire
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-10-26 3:11 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 108+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-07-01 0:12 [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board Dave Taht
2021-07-02 1:16 ` David P. Reed
2021-07-02 4:04 ` [Make-wifi-fast] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-02 16:11 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-07-02 17:07 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Dave Taht
2021-07-02 23:28 ` [Make-wifi-fast] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-06 13:46 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Ben Greear
2021-07-06 20:43 ` [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-06 21:24 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Ben Greear
2021-07-06 22:05 ` [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-07 13:34 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Ben Greear
2021-07-07 19:19 ` [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-08 19:38 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " David P. Reed
2021-07-08 22:51 ` [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-07-09 3:08 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " Leonard Kleinrock
2021-07-09 10:05 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " Luca Muscariello
2021-07-09 19:31 ` [Cerowrt-devel] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point David P. Reed
2021-07-09 20:24 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-09 22:57 ` [Bloat] " Holland, Jake
2021-07-09 23:37 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2021-07-09 23:01 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Leonard Kleinrock
2021-07-09 23:56 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] " Jonathan Morton
2021-07-17 23:56 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] " Aaron Wood
2021-07-10 19:51 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-10 23:24 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 13:46 ` [Bloat] " Livingood, Jason
2021-07-12 17:40 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " David P. Reed
2021-07-12 18:21 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 18:38 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 19:07 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Ben Greear
2021-07-12 20:04 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 20:32 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Ben Greear
2021-07-12 20:36 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] " David Lang
2021-07-12 20:50 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 20:42 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-13 7:14 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Amr Rizk
2021-07-13 17:07 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-13 17:49 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " David P. Reed
2021-07-14 18:37 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-15 1:27 ` Holland, Jake
2021-07-16 0:34 ` Bob McMahon
[not found] ` <A5E35F34-A4D5-45B1-8E2D-E2F6DE988A1E@cs.ucla.edu>
2021-07-22 16:30 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-13 17:22 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-17 23:29 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Aaron Wood
2021-07-18 19:06 ` Bob McMahon
2021-07-12 21:54 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] " Jonathan Morton
2021-09-20 1:21 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Dave Taht
2021-09-20 4:00 ` Valdis Klētnieks
2021-09-20 4:09 ` David Lang
2021-09-20 21:30 ` David P. Reed
2021-09-20 21:44 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] " David P. Reed
2021-09-20 12:57 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] " Steve Crocker
2021-09-20 16:36 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] " John Sager
2021-09-21 2:40 ` [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Vint Cerf
2021-09-23 17:46 ` Bob McMahon
2021-09-26 18:24 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] " David P. Reed
2021-10-22 0:51 ` TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT applied to e2e TCP msg latency Bob McMahon
2021-10-26 3:11 ` Stuart Cheshire [this message]
2021-10-26 4:24 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] " Eric Dumazet
2021-10-26 18:45 ` Christoph Paasch
2021-10-26 23:23 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-26 23:38 ` Christoph Paasch
2021-10-27 1:12 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Eric Dumazet
2021-10-27 3:45 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-27 5:40 ` [Cerowrt-devel] " Eric Dumazet
2021-10-28 16:04 ` Christoph Paasch
2021-10-29 21:16 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-26 5:32 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-26 10:04 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] " Bjørn Ivar Teigen
2021-10-26 17:23 ` Bob McMahon
2021-10-27 14:29 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " Sebastian Moeller
2021-08-02 22:59 ` [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board Bob McMahon
2021-08-02 23:16 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-02 23:50 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-03 3:06 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-02 23:55 ` Ben Greear
2021-08-03 0:01 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-03 3:12 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-03 3:23 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-03 4:30 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-03 4:38 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-03 4:44 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " David Lang
2021-08-03 16:01 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 4:35 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-08-08 5:04 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 5:04 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-08-08 5:07 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-10 14:10 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Rodney W. Grimes
2021-08-10 16:13 ` Dick Roy
2021-08-10 17:06 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-10 17:56 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-08-10 18:11 ` Dick Roy
2021-08-10 19:21 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-10 20:16 ` [Cerowrt-devel] Anhyone have a spare couple a hundred million ... Elon may need to start a go-fund-me page! Dick Roy
2021-08-10 20:33 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] " Jeremy Austin
2021-08-10 20:44 ` David Lang
2021-08-10 22:54 ` Bob McMahon
2021-09-02 17:36 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board David P. Reed
2021-09-03 14:35 ` [Bloat] [Cake] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Matt Mathis
2021-09-03 18:33 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Cake] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] " David P. Reed
2021-08-03 0:37 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] " Leonard Kleinrock
2021-08-03 1:24 ` [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 5:07 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
2021-08-08 5:15 ` [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 18:36 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cake] " Aaron Wood
2021-08-08 18:48 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] " Jonathan Morton
2021-08-08 19:58 ` [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cake] [Cerowrt-devel] " Bob McMahon
2021-08-08 4:20 ` [Cerowrt-devel] [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] " Dick Roy
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