From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from prdcg4ipta01x-ext.shaw.ca (prdcg4ipta01x-ext.shaw.ca [204.209.208.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 579433B2A4; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 11:11:28 -0400 (EDT) IronPort-SDR: NjUkrMIccG9xw67pTGCpjzWHpkNd/TRGXjdC9bJjGAellWU+uxqkPLbWSMGOFJCrPDBKVt5vFW +hgL0OLIKOOQ== X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="6000,8403,9569"; a="270440242" X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.72,300,1580799600"; d="scan'208,217";a="270440242" X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=UTmW2LBcEmFtlKzbuSd0gbJOGWHzeHD7CQckK/K3ILlzBSBvUnb1U2DB+PVdKJMrjRvk2q7+kOz0GuEFdf1w71dw8F1sQ1hqjz6z7u6ixQOAR6CMjvMoKcC91Zm76Hd99UBXRawUEq4/wYsMqLFGTlzgODCnUtkiN8rO5ytx3a1zPGzqppfRNr0y0fdMGPeFC199M89KfIg3ei4A+4ofXG/nXVrGy0WJDUFTkgzFU9kZZaRy/kn81V6ak6qJ4UaswWqdUsVlA4p3mfAv6lNH38BYQ02lV5qd9IIw/XF/kSgc3+37/3tu7nzLlqImDTLV/tYAvywQZQfJcgA4086k6g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=8yaGTiYnW2spnpgcs6OJCeyE7ACSUCxc17GVQBEpeLc=; b=Rn42/uW4xKo6Uj8Itd88BG9zRrXoWwhWqbtOlWOGiZWtZZnYNp+oHh88QTTRdfI6M3Iv5kdwUPgJCYlbURoEIXVA9WzdT8LMdEr4SQ+FaI0H5LFdEnXb53zSmUU10ljFwO3ZH9cR4y9OdOjZEhYzav/KF4fNx2q8kQB3dq6b9PFLR77hrvGKmT54tcpv/o0jyGIMT1oHs/SmAt8CRWBuCO0bnUSo5gzdrqx4wMSXPtWft0SHa4Y8Xv46a5tfmNXlryKdoZxbrBMz+ADeEdD1W1GiUPjy+/u7QyNIeh/ddzSsTnJeloUD9rOzbgQOJRN5MN4MO3AX7gRmJ1v1YyKRgw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=sjrb.ca; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=sjrb.ca; dkim=pass header.d=sjrb.ca; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=SJRB.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-SJRB-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=8yaGTiYnW2spnpgcs6OJCeyE7ACSUCxc17GVQBEpeLc=; b=EUIKuvDfK0EHg4L62GbDMT7X2UkhKSFAlHXAGn0lsnSWAsuz/3iEm/XsKYgY4DhphNLAg866soUvFlbdV1ZSwzRJqHr5jsQUaabwuL3i4b/KO2Nmt/SJlA9anRChdyj6AUB6X+eZvOB5pyJKlApGhYUym3cQk2Zo2kP09v/rJwg= From: Colin Dearborn To: "David P. Reed" , Rich Brown CC: "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" Thread-Topic: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] OT: Netflix vs 6in4 from HE.net Thread-Index: AQHWAJE16Wb6l65y/EuQ3Yd/eAA/s6hX1iVe Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 15:11:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54620DA1-1B6B-456E-990E-3C99B6779887@gmx.de> <6C32AF17-015D-4771-8051-17BF1938C22C@gmail.com>, <1584912664.72374374@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1584912664.72374374@apps.rackspace.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Colin.Dearborn@sjrb.ca; x-originating-ip: [2604:3d09:77d:7100:cdc6:bfa4:ac46:3e8e] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 912d527e-2116-4682-ef07-08d7d0059e64 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MWHPR04MB0814: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-forefront-prvs: 03524FBD26 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(39860400002)(396003)(376002)(346002)(366004)(136003)(81156014)(966005)(81166006)(52536014)(19627405001)(55016002)(7696005)(9686003)(66574012)(8676002)(4326008)(71200400001)(478600001)(8936002)(66446008)(186003)(66946007)(66476007)(33656002)(6506007)(64756008)(76116006)(53546011)(66556008)(2906002)(86362001)(54906003)(316002)(5660300002)(110136005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:MWHPR04MB0814; H:MWHPR04MB0671.namprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: sjrb.ca does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 4SShTPFwanC2zzrR+z+tJvWlWie4TxVs/Fhvl2VFxizJ56FKfTWR8OfwoDpt9L3j4xsFJoeoFjkyf0gugjJoe3H/1xXpr/oVNN/e8x7+soG5YQvMAHnRr25crARsEoJtOCnGOGWumGrG+tpdY5QYuQrSBLsfcCvmKoj86EP1RnnRkTYPMxzJTRPznfeM07aEn5OOuxHVV4l2ozExu+nWZA== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MWHPR04MB06718C00021A4561606ACD8895F10MWHPR04MB0671namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 912d527e-2116-4682-ef07-08d7d0059e64 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Mar 2020 15:11:24.5573 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 8b30192e-1388-4ed6-8208-e35dd72ad2ad X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Kw+QxNRldeKBsBN1dnEufSRil8sEcMDJ+yvE7Ns6LhcmDzryIxfUhCyEzK7HJyftpS31KKeacvthbPL6rs4FMQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR04MB0814 X-OriginatorOrg: sjrb.ca Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] OT: Netflix vs 6in4 from HE.net X-BeenThere: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues regarding the cerowrt test router project List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 15:11:28 -0000 --_000_MWHPR04MB06718C00021A4561606ACD8895F10MWHPR04MB0671namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HE IPv6 space has been tagged as a vpn type service by Netflix, since it ha= s users all over the world, but it's space is all geolocated in the US. If = HE had geolocated the blocks of each POP to the country the POP resided in,= and put some rules around geolocation of using each POP (IE Canadian resid= ents can only use Canadian POPs) this could have been avoided, but it also = would have been a large amount of work on HE's side just to make geolocatio= n accurate-ish. Fortunately, my ISP got IPv6 working natively shortly after Netflix started= blocking HE's space, so I didn't have to suffer for too long (but lost my = US netflix.) Content licensing is a very complex thing. While you might believe that you= r subscription equals the license, in reality the license is the agreement = between Netflix and the content providers. Content providers put strict geo= location rules of where content can be played on Netflix, and Netflix can b= e sued by them if it appears that they're not doing enough to protect these= rules. This is to protect the value of the content providers content, when= they sell it to someone other than Netflix, or start their own streaming s= ervice. For example, in Canada, we have a streaming service called Crave. = There's a lot of content on there that would be available to Netflix in the= States, so if Netflix didn't properly adhere to geolocation rules, Crave c= ould legitimately either sue Netflix directly, or get the content provider = to do it for them (again, depending on the licensing agreement). This is why when you travel, you get the local Netflix content, not the con= tent of the country where you pay the subscription. Your option of using a cloud server may work. :) This might turn out to be a problem for me - I have a "smart TV" that I wat= ch Netflix on, and it appears to use IPv4. What specifically triggers Netfl= ix to reject specific IPv6 clients? Is it the player's IPv6 address? Is all= of he.net's address space blocked? I've been planning to move more of my home networks to routed IPv6. In principle, Netflix as a business shouldn't care - it's just doing its be= st efforts to protect its content's licensing requirements. So if I'm actua= lly in the US, and my net claims correctly to be in US (by whatever tricker= y I use), neither Netflix nor I am violating any license from a legal point= of view. So all I need to do would be to get a legit US IPv6 address (I have one /64= on a public cloud server), and tunnel it to my house and give it to my TV.= Not ideal, but until Netflix does its geofencing *correctly* according to = the license, rather than according to IP address, I'd say it's a proper thi= ng. On Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:47pm, "Rich Brown" = said: > I love knowing smart people. > > Yes, it does appear to be Netflix geo-fencing their services. Given that = I only > watch Netflix on one computer, I am taking Sebastian's advice and turning= off IPv6 > DNS queries in Firefox. > > Thanks again for these responses. > > Rich > >> On Mar 21, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> >> Hi Rich, >> >> since it seems to be IPv6 related, why not use firefox for netflix and d= isable >> IPv6 in firefox (see >> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-cant-load-websites-other-br= owsers-can#w_ipv6) >> maybe that works well enough? >> >> Best Regards >> Sebastian >> >> >> >> >>> On Mar 21, 2020, at 21:20, Rich Brown wrote: >>> >>> to Bloat & CeroWrt folks: This is a little OT for either of these lists= , but I >>> figured there are plenty of experts here, and I would be delighted to g= et your >>> thoughts. >>> >>> I just tried to view a Netflix movie and got a F7111-5059 error message= . This >>> prevented the video from playing. (As recently as a month or two ago, i= t worked >>> fine.) >>> >>> Googling the error message gets to this page >>> https://help.netflix.com/en/node/54085 that singles out use of an IPv6 = Proxy >>> Tunnel. >>> >>> Sure enough, I'm have a 6in4 tunnel through Hurricane Electric on WAN6.= Stopping >>> that WAN6 interface caused Netflix to work. >>> >>> What advice could you offer? (I could, of course, turn off WAN6 to watc= h movies. >>> But that's a drag, and other family members couldn't do this.) Many tha= nks. >>> >>> Rich >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> > > _______________________________________________ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --_000_MWHPR04MB06718C00021A4561606ACD8895F10MWHPR04MB0671namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
HE IPv6 space has been tagged as a vpn type service by Netflix, since it ha= s users all over the world, but it's space is all geolocated in the US. If = HE had geolocated the blocks of each POP to the country the POP resided in,= and put some rules around geolocation of using each POP (IE Canadian residents can only use Canadian POPs) this = could have been avoided, but it also would have been a large amount of work= on HE's side just to make geolocation accurate-ish. 

Fortunately, my ISP got IPv6 working natively shortly after Netflix started= blocking HE's space, so I didn't have to suffer for too long (but lost my = US netflix.)

Content licensing is a very complex thing. While you might believe that you= r subscription equals the license, in reality the license is the agreement = between Netflix and the content providers. Content providers put strict geo= location rules of where content can be played on Netflix, and Netflix can be sued by them if it appears th= at they're not doing enough to protect these rules. This is to protect the = value of the content providers content, when they sell it to someone other = than Netflix, or start their own streaming service.  For example, in Canada, we have a streaming servi= ce called Crave. There's a lot of content on there that would be available = to Netflix in the States, so if Netflix didn't properly adhere to geolocati= on rules, Crave could legitimately either sue Netflix directly, or get the content provider to do it for them (again= , depending on the licensing agreement). 
This is why when you travel, you get the local Netflix content, not the con= tent of the country where you pay the subscription.
 
Your option of using a cloud server may work. :)


This might turn out to be a problem for me - I hav= e a "smart TV" that I watch Netflix on, and it appears to use IPv= 4. What specifically triggers Netflix to reject specific IPv6 clients? Is i= t the player's IPv6 address? Is all of he.net's address space blocked?

I've been planning to move more of my home networks to routed IPv6.

In principle, Netflix as a business shouldn't care - it's just doing its be= st efforts to protect its content's licensing requirements. So if I'm actua= lly in the US, and my net claims correctly to be in US (by whatever tricker= y I use), neither Netflix nor I am violating any license from a legal point of view.

So all I need to do would be to get a legit US IPv6 address (I have one /64= on a public cloud server), and tunnel it to my house and give it to my TV.= Not ideal, but until Netflix does its geofencing *correctly* according to = the license, rather than according to IP address, I'd say it's a proper thing.



On Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:47pm, "Rich Brown" <richb.hanove= r@gmail.com> said:

>  I love knowing smart people.
>
> Yes, it does appear to be Netflix geo-fencing their services. Given th= at I only
> watch Netflix on one computer, I am taking Sebastian's advice and turn= ing off IPv6
> DNS queries in Firefox.
>
> Thanks again for these responses.
>
> Rich
>
>> On Mar 21, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de= > wrote:
>>
>> Hi Rich,
>>
>> since it seems to be IPv6 related, why not use firefox for netflix= and disable
>> IPv6 in firefox (see
>> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-cant-load-websites-other-brows= ers-can#w_ipv6)
>> maybe that works well enough?
>>
>> Best Regards
>>      Sebastian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 21, 2020, at 21:20, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.= com> wrote:
>>>
>>> to Bloat & CeroWrt folks: This is a little OT for either o= f these lists, but I
>>> figured there are plenty of experts here, and I would be delig= hted to get your
>>> thoughts.
>>>
>>> I just tried to view a Netflix movie and got a F7111-5059 erro= r message. This
>>> prevented the video from playing. (As recently as a month or t= wo ago, it worked
>>> fine.)
>>>
>>> Googling the error message gets to this page
>>> https://hel= p.netflix.com/en/node/54085 that singles out use of an IPv6 Proxy
>>> Tunnel.
>>>
>>> Sure enough, I'm have a 6in4 tunnel through Hurricane Electric= on WAN6. Stopping
>>> that WAN6 interface caused Netflix to work.
>>>
>>> What advice could you offer? (I could, of course, turn off WAN= 6 to watch movies.
>>> But that's a drag, and other family members couldn't do this.)= Many thanks.
>>>
>>> Rich
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https= ://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https= ://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>


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