From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-iy0-f171.google.com (mail-iy0-f171.google.com [209.85.210.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59AB4201728; Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by iagw33 with SMTP id w33so697057iag.16 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:14:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=HmltIdhsZf7z5FBbqOmvXidgwY5qi6oXgmmWsrE2pSI=; b=stF0W1T5fa7qduXNtY486vAFgonHj50GmvCw4kVUOSz28kVEjLattAST4hQJo9/QkQ kV1JDW2ineI8JRNhXLmuggrhOW1z02R+babPQ7u8+kkkk1DJv5U0pI6JEX2fXZdxnQak ZOXQbPBmrK4mjNPE9t/teyURdTr1oS94UrEDQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.131.196 with SMTP id hr4mr1246472icc.55.1323926082664; Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.204.83 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:14:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 06:14:42 +0100 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-users@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt@lists.bufferbloat.net, Jim Reisert AD1C , Stephen Walker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307f30c4ddb84904b41a8f78 Subject: [Cerowrt-users] engaging developers and users [#314] X-BeenThere: cerowrt-users@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: Support for user problems regarding cerowrt List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 05:14:43 -0000 --20cf307f30c4ddb84904b41a8f78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable our anti-phishing system kicked back on the numeric urls in this, fixed now= . The reason why cerowrt lives on the 172 dot 30 dot 42 dot X address is that it had been my hope that others working on this project would plug *two* routers into their home network - one for the day-to-day effort of keeping their internet access up and running (on 192 dot 168 dot zero dot one), and a cerowrt box for analyzing both routers behavior. *I* don't run it as my day-to-day device at the moment. From where I sit, it's a test tool - an increasingly good one - for coming up with solutions to bufferbloat, and fixing the whole home router disaster with things like ipv6, proxying, dns, etc... it has oprofile, and debugging tools by default, etc, etc. I had planned to get to where we had stable releases that could be used day-to-day, but it's been a while since we had one, and I feel that we're going to make some progress on the core bufferbloat problem next quarter, and not have a stable release. I'm GLAD to have users and testers - some generations of cerowrt are running for people like jg, esr, & each, and have enormous stability and uptimes - I don't know who else is running a generation of cerowrt day-to-day frankly, there's been a lot of downloads - but there will always be something broken in a smoketest or rc, that may not be able to be fixed very quickly. Or something crazy we're doing - like routing vs bridging - that exposes a problem that we needed to know about.... Recently, that happened with samba. And while I hope that's fixed now (in a couple ways - wins appears to be working, and I also have a largely untested samba 3.6.1 package, it needs to get tested at some point in next year's development cycle) http://www.bufferbloat.net/issues/314 http://www.bufferbloat.net/issues/303 I'd really like to use samba again personally, I used to use it a lot. These days I tend to use sshfs, and that's zillions of times slower than samba. Having a user support community and people testing release candidates and smoketests is very important to me, too! I LOVED finding out how to make samba work right... So, high on my list is coming up with a proper way of stressing what's on the front page of the documentation, and setting (low!) expectations, and keeping people engaged... From: http://cero2.bufferbloat.net/cerowrt/ "CeroWrt is an OpenWrtrouter platform for use by individuals, researchers, and students interested in advancing the state of the art on the Internet. Specifically, it is aimed at investigating the problems of latency under load, bufferbloat, wireless-n, QoS , and the effects of various TCP algorithms on shared networks." If there is some place in the doc where we are not putting up large warning signs - 'BUGS AHEAD. DANGEROUS CODE. DON'T EXPERIMENT WITH THIS ON WIVES OR CHILDREN' - I'd to find it and fix it. I'm perfectly happy with the hardware and core software itself at this point. I wasn't, this time last year. I'd like everybody in the open source and network research communities to get TWO routers based on this chipset for christmas! Use one day to day, running openwrt, and the other experimenting with a future outlined by the ideas in cerowrt. 1) I'd like to come up with a good way for people to plug this in as a 'secondary' router. Right now that requires turning off nat, and telling the upstream router to give the cerowrt router a static ip and route to the 172 dot 30 dot 42 dot 0 slash 24 address. Perhaps we can take some screenshots of how to do that on more common CPE? Network renumbering involves running a couple line sed script. http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/cerowrt/wiki/Default_network_numbering I hope to make renumbering a router easier with a gui, but you know, it's a 3 line sed script and a couple hundred lines of gui to write to make that easier. I'm also thinking of merely writing an RFC standardizing that 192 dot 168 dot zero dot 1 should be the number ALL routers come up on, and the number all home networks should use. For april 1st. Bridging is also possible... but not very. 2) Another thought is to do builds of the ceropackages repository for straight openwrt, and point people at that for things like the bleeding edge samba stuff. I like ceropackages, it's a good way to spin up and debug a new package, with a low barrier to entry for new people to openwrt - after which it has always been my intent to push the stable stuff upstream. Multiple grad students have used the ceropackages concept to get up to speed somewhat and steve walker's been great about polishing those up. (and also submitting packages of his own) 3) Is to more aggressively push up the stuff that works into std openwrt. This is currently blocked by something stupid http://www.bufferbloat.net/issues/319 or convince someone to push the stable stuff up to openwrt on a regular basis. 5) Increase the number of people doing active development and able to fix bugs and documentation. Any other ideas as to accomplish these mutually incompatable goals - gain developers, increase the userbase, gain testers,get good day to day and long term resolve, solve bufferbloat, establish world peace, and be able to do bleeding edge R&D... are welcomed. I do not ever want to disappoint people with our efforts, and will work diligently at fixing every problem exposed by the new stuff we're doing. One of my first thoughts was pretty simple in this area though - try to do less new stuff! --=20 Dave T=E4ht SKYPE: davetaht US Tel: 1-239-829-5608 FR Tel: 0638645374 http://www.bufferbloat.net --20cf307f30c4ddb84904b41a8f78 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable our anti-phishing system kicked back on the numeric urls in this, fixed now= .

The reason why cerowrt lives on the 172 dot 30 dot 42 dot X addres= s is that it had=20 been my hope that others working on this project would plug *two*=20 routers into their home network - one for the day-to-day effort of=20 keeping their internet access up and running (on 192 dot 168 dot zero dot o= ne), and a=20 cerowrt box for analyzing both routers behavior.

*I* don't run it as my day-to-day device at the moment. From where = I sit, it's a=20 test tool - an increasingly good one - for coming up with solutions to=20 bufferbloat, and fixing the whole home router disaster with things like=20 ipv6, proxying, dns, etc... it has oprofile, and debugging tools by=20 default, etc, etc.

I had planned to get to where we had stable releases that could be=20 used day-to-day, but it's been a while since we had one, and I feel tha= t we're going to make some progress on the core bufferbloat problem next= =20 quarter, and not have a stable release.

I'm GLAD to have users and testers - some generations of cerowrt ar= e running for people like jg, esr, & each, and have enormous=20 stability and uptimes - I don't know who else is running a generation o= f cerowrt day-to-day frankly, there's been a lot of downloads - but ther= e will always be something broken in a smoketest or rc, that may not be=20 able to be fixed very quickly. Or something crazy we're doing - like=20 routing vs bridging - that exposes a problem that we needed to know=20 about....

Recently, that happened with samba. And while I hope that's fixed= =20 now (in a couple ways - wins appears to be working, and I also have a=20 largely untested samba 3.6.1 package, it needs to get tested at some=20 point in next year's development cycle)

htt= p://www.bufferbloat.net/issues/314
http://www.bufferbloat.net/issues/303

I'd really like to use samba again personally, I used to use it a lot.=20 These days I tend to use sshfs, and that's zillions of times slower tha= n samba.

Having a user support community and people testing release candidates and=20 smoketests is very important to me, too! I LOVED finding out how to make sa= mba work right...

So, high on my list is coming up with a proper way of stressing=20 what's on the front page of the documentation, and setting (low!)=20 expectations, and keeping people engaged...

From: http://cero2.bufferbloat.= net/cerowrt/

"CeroWrt is an OpenWrt rou= ter platform for use by individuals, researchers, and students interested in advancing the state of the art on the Internet. Specifically, it is aimed at investigating the problems of latency under load, bufferbloat, wi= reless-n, QoS, and t= he effects of various TC= P algorithms on shared networks."

If there is some place in the doc where we are not= =20 putting up large warning signs - 'BUGS AHEAD. DANGEROUS CODE. DON'T= =20 EXPERIMENT WITH THIS ON WIVES OR CHILDREN' - I'd to find it and fix= it.

I'm perfectly happy with the hardware and core software itself at t= his point. I wasn't, this time last year.

I'd like everybody in the open source and network research communities to=20 get TWO routers based on this chipset for christmas! Use one day to day, running openwrt, and the other experimenting with a future outlined by=20 the ideas in cerowrt.

1) I'd like to come up with a good way for people to plug this in a= s a 'secondary' router.

Right now that requires turning off nat, and telling the upstream router to=20 give the cerowrt router a static ip and route to the 172 dot 30 dot 42 dot = 0 slash 24 address. Perhaps we can take some screenshots of how to do that = on more common CPE?

Network renumbering involves running a couple line sed script.
=09 =09
http://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/ce= rowrt/wiki/Default_network_numbering

I hope to make renumbering a router easier with a gui, but you know, it'= s a 3 line sed script and a couple hundred lines of gui to write to make=20 that easier.
I'm also thinking of merely writing an RFC standardizing that=20 192 dot 168 dot zero dot 1 should be the number ALL routers come up on, and= the number=20 all home networks should use. For april 1st.

Bridging is also possib= le... but not very.

2) Another thought is to do builds of the ceropackages repository=20 for straight openwrt, and point people at that for things like the=20 bleeding edge samba stuff.

I like ceropackages, it's a good way= =20 to spin up and debug a new package, with a low barrier to entry for new=20 people to openwrt - after which it has always been my intent to push the stable stuff upstream. Multiple grad students have used the=20 ceropackages concept to get up to speed somewhat and steve walker's bee= n great about polishing those up. (and also submitting packages of his=20 own)

3) Is to more aggressively push up the stuff that works into std openwr= t. This is currently blocked by something stupid

http://www.bufferbloat.net= /issues/319

or convince someone to push the stable stuff up to openwrt on a regular= basis.

5) Increase the number of people doing active = development and able to fix bugs and documentation.

Any other ideas as to accomplish these mutually incompatable goals - gain=20 developers, increase the userbase, gain testers,get good day to day and=20 long term resolve, solve bufferbloat, establish world peace, and be able to do bleeding edge R&D... are welcomed.

I do not ever want to disappoint people with our efforts, and will=20 work diligently at fixing every problem exposed by the new stuff we're= =20 doing. One of my first thoughts was pretty simple in this area though -=20 try to do less new stuff!

--
Dave T=E4ht
SKYPE= : davetaht
US Tel: 1-239-829-5608
FR Tel: 0638645374
http://www.bufferbloat.net<= br> --20cf307f30c4ddb84904b41a8f78--