From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=fail; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=fail (Used From Domain Record) header.from=umbernetworks.com policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mail.umbernetworks.com (mail.umbernetworks.com [198.74.51.139]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACFA2114BBA5; Sat, 23 May 2026 18:36:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from webmail.umbernetworks.com (files.umbernetwork.com [198.74.51.139]) by mail.umbernetworks.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4697221A4A4; Sat, 23 May 2026 16:36:56 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 23 May 2026 09:36:56 -0700 From: bob.mcmahon@umbernetworks.com To: dan Cc: Robert McMahon , Frantisek Borsik , David Lang , "Livingood, Jason" , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , bloat , Jeremy Austin via Rpm , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, "Dave.seddon Ca" , William Fisher , Igor Aleinikov , Jim , Jiml , Douglas Fairbairn , Thomas , Tim Odriscoll , Morten , Sebastian Moeller , Mt Denicolo , Mmcmahon01 , Santanu Sinha , Matthew , Koen DS , Shotaro Saito In-Reply-To: References: <709dac7800ee7ad92aafd4eab1c761d9@umbernetworks.com> <0oq1n88q-36qn-p6s7-699s-p4nr0440p950@ynat.uz> Message-ID: <8e14c6935753c6263351ad00ec59b9cb@umbernetworks.com> X-Sender: bob.mcmahon@umbernetworks.com X-MailFrom: bob.mcmahon@umbernetworks.com X-Mailman-Rule-Hits: nonmember-moderation X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation Message-ID-Hash: 42ZTITZC4MBHY36ZTTDN446AORTCXAB5 X-Message-ID-Hash: 42ZTITZC4MBHY36ZTTDN446AORTCXAB5 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 23 May 2026 22:28:03 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 3.3.10 X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Codel] Re: [Rpm] Re: [Bloat] Re: [Cake] "Fi-Wi is a new forwarding plane for wireless" - Bob McMahon List-Id: CoDel AQM discussions Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > I don't have arguments on the technical bits of your reply. The industry hasn't provided open source tools to analyze 802.11 properly. The proprietary ones are tightly coupled to chip firmware, owned by 802.11 vendors, and not for sale. You've built solid networks, especially given how little 802.11 MAC-layer and MCS observability current tooling exposes. I hope to make open source 802.11 MAC telemetry tools available sooner rather than later. These will run on both an ESP32-C5 and an RPi5. The inexpensive ESP32 allows monitors to be placed throughout a venue at low cost. A key issue is what's being measured. Your deployment data is a capacity analysis. Once baseline capacity is adequate, user experience is driven by tail latency and service-time variance rather than throughput. A network can saturate aggregate throughput while still showing large service-time variance and long per-flow tails under contention. These are different measurements. And CODEL and CAKE are IP-layer mechanisms. They don't operate on 802.11 TXOPs or airtime sojourn, which is where the contention and service-time variance actually live. AQL is closer. It operates on airtime at the driver/firmware boundary, but it's still per-AP. There's no coordination across APs and no MAC telemetry exposed upward. Slide 6 of my DPDK Summit Stockholm talk lays out the layering: https://www.umbernetworks.com/DPDK_WiFi_Stockholm_Pres.html Check out iperf2's advanced features around --bounceback, --trip-times, and --histograms. These are available as open source. Man page: https://iperf2.sourceforge.io/iperf-manpage.html I'll try to respond with some metrics soon. My rig is down at the moment, so give me a few days. Bob