From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-vb0-f42.google.com (mail-vb0-f42.google.com [209.85.212.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 846D521F107; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f42.google.com with SMTP id fa15so5591511vbb.29 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:45:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=gALv0YoNlAeyZFBMk4YwOtMHj1V834R2TkVvbRFLeUQ=; b=PjQBN66gCMs4nFxnMd1KYeeRs+V26mH0SPv0qRvgv9SAhcPpCnTMTutI3ZQg2z0Af3 oN/hsxqd/17rqy3qfKlAqpAlx8dZqEaMp1vevxl+7/M/HqHyt9IaIrcWgy3YNtXhRUxF MzfdElGfshLPTdub/Ypue/lFLpMeiBwUP68cgepdwT/E5mDh4dhj+b2lvIj0+cGG20yg cOSe/pUAgTxSHpmnIaHhiWud8dh8zBHE4etGZfv6MV1kfF8H2U0DeV0ZlY6mVbPl2tni 2/4jzIu5kl4vqbmt8a2/IkQnM29uEUv082Oe0Lmt5zT1frHOvLJkGWS7zOe4KQSkuNmy 1mXg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.186.226 with SMTP id fn2mr21996816vec.33.1356115529475; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:45:29 -0800 (PST) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.116.135 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:45:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1356114301.310221396@apps.rackspace.com> References: <20121220103213.4ABAD800037@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <1356011592.2372508@apps.rackspace.com> <1356112139.35814863@apps.rackspace.com> <1356114301.310221396@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 13:45:28 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: RwHp8fAq-s_hkigTgw37mABoxzY Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: David P Reed Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b677ff068a58d04d16140aa Cc: "codel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat-devel , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , blogic@openwrt.org Subject: Re: [Codel] [Cerowrt-devel] hardware hacking on fq_codel in FPGA form at 10GigE X-BeenThere: codel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: CoDel AQM discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 18:45:31 -0000 --047d7b677ff068a58d04d16140aa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:25 PM, wrote: > I'm sure the HSPA+ modem is a binary blob. For regulatory reasons, if > nothing else... > > > > When I said open, I did not mean the ultimate ideal. Hardware devices > with firmware are often sold as black boxes. > > > > Fixing the bloat in HSPA+ and LTE systems will require organizations like > Ericsson, ALU and Cisco and Huawei to get their acts together and fix the= ir > own bugs. > Actually, this needs probably/certainly needs help from the chip vendors as well as the system vendors. The system vendors (such as ALU) often get their chips and drivers from those chip vendors. I haven't looked into the HSPA+ or LTE systems; I am looking into DSL. In the DSL concrete example, Broadcom controls the bulk of the DSL chip market, and (at least on the client home router end) provides a binary blob Linux driver based on an antique Linux release (2.6.26, IIRC). The hardware itself did not look like it had bad buffering, but the drivers.... I've been working with blogic (John Crispin) on debloating the Lantiq driver, which we are trying to test; since it is entirely open source. In the Lantiq DSL driver case, the hardware sprouted exactly the same sort of transmit/receive rings found in ethernet drivers, with the corresponding bufferbloat due to device drivers being totally stupid. Unfortunately, BQL is ethernet only, and right now doesn't work properly at low bandwidths. When John cut the transmit ring down to 2 packets, the latency dropped (at the bandwidth he was testing at, .5Mbps) to around 60ms running fq_codel, about what you would expect given the remaining buffers; we have to automate the control of the transmit ring properly (since we probably do need some help when running VDSL at 100Mbps). I suspect/expect we'll find similar "features" when we dig into LTE and HSPA+, though that is not certain. Now, back to my saga of my recalcitrant water well, after which I can go back to testing DSL the next trip to New Jersey (and flush the toilets and have heat; I have geothermal heat...). Sigh, - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Jim Gettys" > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:14pm > To: "David P Reed" > Cc: "Dave Taht" , "bloat-devel" < > bloat-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" > , "codel@lists.bufferbloat.net" < > codel@lists.bufferbloat.net> > Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] hardware hacking on fq_codel in FPGA form at > 10GigE > > > > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 12:48 PM, wrote: > >> And if you want an open tablet the ODROID U2 there is pretty nice for >> <$900 all in, including an HSPA+ modem w/GPS. I can only imagine what = one >> can do with this.... >> > Often the modem bits are binary blobs. Any information on this front? > - Jim > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Dave Taht" >> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 7:34am >> To: dpreed@reed.com >> Cc: "Hal Murray" , "bloat-devel" < >> bloat-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, >> cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] hardware hacking on fq_codel in FPGA form a= t >> 10GigE >> >> It really is astounding what is going on in the arm world: >> >> >> http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=3DG= 135341370451 >> >> >> >> >> > The wndr3700v4 is out, and appears to be a good hardware upgrade from >> > the 3800 series, but it's not supported by openwrt yet. >> > >> > I took a look at their GPL source distribution. And yea! it's openwrt. >> > And boo! it's ancient openwrt, for example dnsmasq is 2.39 (current is >> > 2.64), and their kernel is 2.6.31. >> > >> > I think the cpu and ethernet chips tho look a lot better: Atheros >> > AR9344+ AR9580(5GHz)+AR9344(2.4GHz). It's my hope these do ipv6 >> > better. >> > >> > I have looked at similar products from buffalo and others, would like >> > external antennas and a good switch this time around. Thoughts? >> > >> > -- >> > Dave T=E4ht >> > >> > Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: >> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Dave T=E4ht >> >> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: >> http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat-devel mailing list >> Bloat-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat-devel >> >> >> >> --047d7b677ff068a58d04d16140aa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:25 PM, <dpreed@reed.com> wr= ote:

I'm sure= the HSPA+ modem is a binary blob.=A0 For regulatory reasons, if nothing el= se...

=A0

When I said open, I did not mean the ultima= te ideal.=A0 Hardware devices with firmware are often sold as black boxes.<= /p>

=A0

Fixing the bloat in HSPA+ and LTE systems w= ill require organizations like Ericsson, ALU and Cisco and Huawei to get th= eir acts together and fix their own bugs.


Actually, this needs probably/certainly needs help from th= e chip vendors as well as the system vendors. =A0The system vendors (such a= s ALU) often get their chips and drivers from those chip vendors.

I haven't looked into the HSPA+ or LTE systems; I = am looking into DSL. =A0In the DSL concrete example, Broadcom controls the = bulk of the DSL chip market, and (at least on the client home router end) p= rovides a binary blob Linux driver based on an antique Linux release (2.6.2= 6, IIRC). The hardware itself did not look like it had bad buffering, but t= he drivers....

I've been working with blogic (John Cri= spin) on debloating the Lantiq driver, which we are trying to test; since i= t is entirely open source. =A0In the Lantiq DSL driver case, the hardware s= prouted exactly the same sort of transmit/receive rings found in ethernet d= rivers, with the corresponding bufferbloat due to device drivers being tota= lly stupid. =A0Unfortunately, BQL is ethernet only, and right now doesn'= ;t work properly at low bandwidths.

When John cut the transmit ring down to 2 p= ackets, the latency dropped (at the bandwidth he was testing at, .5Mbps) to= around 60ms running fq_codel, about what you would expect given the remain= ing buffers; we have to automate the control of the transmit ring properly = (since we probably do need some help when running VDSL at 100Mbps).

I suspect/expect we'll find similar &qu= ot;features" when we dig into LTE and HSPA+, though that is not certai= n.

Now, back to my saga of my recalcit= rant water well, after which I can go back to testing DSL the next trip to = New Jersey (and flush the toilets and have heat; I have geothermal heat...)= .
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Sigh,
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 - Jim


=A0

-----Original Message-----
From: "J= im Gettys" <jg@freedesktop.org>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:14pm
To= : "David P Reed" <dpreed@reed.com>
Cc: "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com>, "bloat-devel" <bloat-deve= l@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "codel@lists.bufferbloa= t.net" <codel@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] hardware hacking on fq_codel in FPGA form at 1= 0GigE




On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 12:48 PM, <dpreed@reed.c= om> wrote:

And if you want an open = tablet the ODROID U2 there is pretty nice for <$900 all in, including an= HSPA+ modem w/GPS.=A0=A0 I can only imagine what one can do with this....<= /p>

Often the modem bits are binary blobs. =A0Any information on this fron= t?
- Jim

=A0

-----Original Message---= --
From: "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 2= 1, 2012 7:34am
To: dpreed@reed.com
Cc: "Hal Murray" <hmurray@megapathdsl.net>, "bloat-devel&q= uot; <bloat-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowr= t-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] hardware hacking on fq_codel in FPGA form at = 10GigE

It really is astounding = what is going on in the arm world:

http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code= =3DG135341370451

=A0



> The wndr3700v4 is out, and appears to be a good hardware upgra= de from
> the 3800 series, but it's not supported by openwrt yet.=
>
> I took a look at their GPL source distribution. And yea! = it's openwrt.
> And boo! it's ancient openwrt, for example dnsmasq is 2.39 (curren= t is
> 2.64), and their kernel is 2.6.31.
>
> I think the= cpu and ethernet chips tho look a lot better: Atheros
> AR9344+ AR9= 580(5GHz)+AR9344(2.4GHz). It's my hope these do ipv6
> better.
>
> I have looked at similar products from buffalo= and others, would like
> external antennas and a good switch this ti= me around. Thoughts?
>
> --
> Dave T=E4ht
>
>= ; Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscr= ibe.html
=A0




--
Dave T=E4ht

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: = http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html
=A0

_______________________________________________
Bloat-devel = mailing list
Bloat-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bu= fferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat-devel
=A0



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