From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A012A3B29D; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 13:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-60789b450ceso7326198a12.2; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 10:32:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750008751; x=1750613551; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=TWSiyTXC/bMo6OOmFvCEdPbfvuzBZZi05ESlskSWEaQ=; b=cMJRC0aVIhgOsCA0VKxBXvVCv4MmDUTneHC83NUoX+k5oFHbzz9fh5EsCxWgZY6bFl YYqv4crwOTTf7KKmeFEm0FIlVauiTP+2YzO3gxff7LRvpWbNAydNz00K4ZwfFUkuh0S4 7MvMG6vONT/2Bml8MEA9NhXlAtMbkYfsWlJcBqdBy0Sn+GeHzardgRBgZ8OEBwlYrht0 FewmToTAFk7aFQ+eai9efv6toJj1fiREiWB4wW5pWyHWb2q7P/JJuKDX9jC4iQuwyM9Q 9xr9qx1w0bieVARMmRZaP9xwq+vmeolS94Won+k31oOig7rtEugoK6ynNUE1CDnev/B9 04sw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750008751; x=1750613551; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=TWSiyTXC/bMo6OOmFvCEdPbfvuzBZZi05ESlskSWEaQ=; b=SPIF4ZRJDNEGUnGnYdLe7hwzUrPO35AddBbbwgdZJAxnNEV9amL6Nl7JVzFv0JBpOX gDraO8kjffDvHRRrX0w28s4tpZu9tLGaB74MkeicXJWVlMuvs8ws38ODUmgBlm+PaB8K c2pNmNbiC72Y/66Oj50+XZSSczJmt/C2VDr5XULl/qXiwTxCGRoYPBt7TpDV1O/38WjQ /+a7wEgbF5e1b5cCwh759k2xZUqHNEy+YtQikYMszUcGu5wetmdrjS18NTjObsef1DXd Op6Q2K/TLB230LdU6i5GmcggtLyC0rFQt+aYL/0FZUTThfn4bWZQNzG4ifwGHkLbQP0x 4rKA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUTRniVmAyta0XlY4P84JDAsbLdOLcDmqWZKSCJQIom9fTFApQuQ6JKyIYNmCnvtWAeiE/e@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCUeMrWMwovUfUc3mg8PnREYs8HvFAwXt4zgMs7K4hGLX2Q1JUhFwhAsGaB3zGN9dHdH8OaIDg==@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCVJa8I3Vrdd++ZLZw2kv6amunhndeJLLxVrYpiX8QsSxDhwGGp4uS9VDYsgjaHkK7p0wmngOdI=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCVal70i1aZrfOjBVB835KLPhotqU3p0r7DnvO765qD9YKQhYjp7fI04R9h3xrK3gVzs2YHgBd4=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCWAff9eA2bU2QL8pJ5QhY7GILEpoooTaw+M4S61zdzXrfdaaWx+0ACBJynahEpiYuSk5ryH/qeObFE=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCWgNT84/2eOua8ZGRxaoram3wf2BRQZVDRDw4ncKLq51JkWoJNREuAwJStQQiJvuVEzfX1hKuPXMm/L@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXhRjOjsA3XOux6J8YG9i8C9uYMX/DPra+jXrDtabOfrGHncgZ+GNw/CYY9R6ncp40DPYj7EuHsFXo=@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzY7krPzgv2BtdYfDUBkTagZqkzAq0Mz+JE+O1ORCwX0eMCeJEe 8P+M7Pskc0n4b9hyqXBnKo0I0vGryyGTuEsY1JsDC0ucQWLjiGx1mrTJRdrGSTSSPvT0mpQw5dz j1z+l3pXrrByiRxHPSxbNcXtqueACIhU= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvm2KFYKgyS3YR8hX+dWtmdSEGkB8qjWnmtbo7PJXDh4tH72HKsEVALHM+Bn9G daIaaCuBKgq8kkkBlPFy+PY73KJKj7qSFz3A7Um0nLoCmNBYA8XCS9Onpz4B+wX783luSe09Ufm v9T88ZIVB+yBSRiD6oNwoUVES8TOjPKIRHRoYLk3U3kQAPiqnVf5Bdm0dFlbONMN5CrnIy3mjJF cX1GA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE9xriEMcHT5M7tkgIozpCF1KRXQJqNeKsieRSQAe2WeviMCHGH4X2bhJbrqEZWCJ/q/9QeQvJb668vg9lEVCs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:e8e:b0:ad8:99e6:80bb with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-adfad3ebccamr623703666b.1.1750008751221; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 10:32:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6684dff4-c2a1-4f41-be9a-71162f256031@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6684dff4-c2a1-4f41-be9a-71162f256031@app.fastmail.com> From: dave seddon Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 10:32:20 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFsYuykezI2B7rDHZmEjvdmtW9lcwRJpduhe6jy6BLqDcXihc9ceHTxYfz4 Message-ID: To: Nils Andreas Svee Cc: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow , Frantisek Borsik , Dave Taht , Herbert Wolverson , libreqos , Jeremy Austin , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, bloat , Cake List , bloat-ietf@lists.bufferbloat.net, =?UTF-8?Q?Robert_Chac=C3=B3n?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f86f6506379fa9f3" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 05:58:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [Codel] [Cake] [Bloat] [Starlink] Announcing the LibreQoS Bufferbloat TestPlatform X-BeenThere: codel@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: CoDel AQM discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 17:32:32 -0000 --000000000000f86f6506379fa9f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very cool Frank! When I run it, it says all of my latency is 0.0ms. This is firefox-139.0.1 on NixOS unstable. I guess soem of the CORS headers are screwed up? Cross-Origin Request Blocked: The Same Origin Policy disallows reading the remote resource at https://test-elp.libreqos.com:8005/ping?cb=3D242578. (Reason: CORS request did not succeed). Status code: (null). I don't know, I guess you probably _do_ want these objects to be cacheable via the CDN? GET /ping?cb=3D819806 HTTP/1.1 Host: test-elp.libreqos.com:8005 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:139.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/139.0 Accept: */* Accept-Language: en-US,en;q=3D0.5 Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate, br, zstd Pragma: no-cache Cache-Control: no-store, no-cache, must-revalidate X-Priority: high X-Ping-Attempt: 0 Referer: https://test.libreqos.com/ Origin: https://test.libreqos.com Connection: keep-alive Sec-Fetch-Dest: empty Sec-Fetch-Mode: cors Sec-Fetch-Site: same-site HTTP/1.1 200 OK date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 17:13:55 GMT server: uvicorn cache-control: no-store, no-cache, must-revalidate pragma: no-cache x-ping-server: dedicated x-priority-processed: true x-ping-timeouts-seen: 0 content-length: 4 content-type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 access-control-allow-origin: * access-control-allow-credentials: true Your Nginx server also can have caching enabled for the favorite icon, and the javascript, which should make it faster to load. HTTP/2 200 server: nginx/1.18.0 (Ubuntu) date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 17:13:35 GMT content-type: text/javascript; charset=3Dutf-8 vary: Accept-Encoding last-modified: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 04:28:53 GMT strict-transport-security: max-age=3D63072000 x-content-type-options: nosniff x-frame-options: SAMEORIGIN content-encoding: gzip X-Firefox-Spdy: h2 I've found that you can set the caching for the CORS "preflight" requests too and it definitely helps. e.g. access-control-max-age 345600 On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 9:53=E2=80=AFAM Nils Andreas Svee via Cake < cake@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Just tried it too: https://imgur.com/a/F2cNZd4, also getting A+ overall, > and "only" A for bidirectional. > > I seem to be getting a 200+ ms spike right at the beginning of the > baseline test, which skews the results. > This happened at least on a couple of tests, but after a few tries it got > better. At least with ICMP ping separately I don't see any spikes like th= at. > > Best Regards > Nils > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, at 23:20, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Bloa= t > wrote: > > re: *thoughts and feedback!* > > your https://test.libreqos.com tests of [Single User Test] & [Virtual > Household Mode] both give yours truly bufferbloat grades of *A+ * > > whereas the https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat test gives yours > truly a bufferbloat brade grade of *C* > > > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Db13810f2-e999-4045-8= e8b-ab3ab8b957c5 > > #1.) Why/What's the difference? > > #2.) Who/Which one to believe=C2=BF > > g > > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > Hello to all, > > We're excited to announce the release of the *LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test* > =E2=80=93 an open-source bufferbloat testing solution designed specifical= ly for > ISPs and network operators to deploy for their customers. > > *Link* > https://test.libreqos.com > > *What Makes This Different* > > While there are several bufferbloat testing tools available, this platfor= m > addresses a critical gap: ISP-deployable infrastructure that provides bot= h > traditional testing and realistic household simulation. > > As Dave T=C3=A4ht highlighted in his influential article "What's Wrong wi= th > Speed Tests" , traditional > speed tests fail to measure what users actually experience. We tried to > address Dave's points to make a better speed test that focuses on the > metric that matters: latency under load in realistic usage scenarios. > > *Two Complementary Test Modes* > > *Single User Test Mode* > > - Traditional sequential load testing (baseline =E2=86=92 download =E2= =86=92 upload =E2=86=92 > bidirectional) > - Measures working latency and jitter during each phase > - Familiar A+ to F grading based on latency under load increases > - Comparable to existing tools like DSLReports Speed Test and Waveform > Bufferbloat Test > > > *Virtual Household Mode (The Innovation)* > > Process-isolated simulation of 4 concurrent users with authentic traffic > patterns: > > - Alex (Gaming): 1.5 Mbps constant, jitter-sensitive for competitive > gaming > - Sarah (Video Conference): 2.5 Mbps bidirectional, Teams simulation > with working latency monitoring > - Jake (Netflix HD): 25 Mbps bursts (1s on, 4s off), realistic > streaming patterns > - Computer (Background): Up to 200 Mbps continuous download, system > updates > > > Real-world relevance: Tests latency under load when multiple family > members are online simultaneously > > Advanced grading: Network fairness, jitter measurement, and per-user > working latency analysis > > *Why (not only) ISPs Need This* > > *The traditional approach of sending customers to third-party speed test > sites has limitations:* > > - No control over test methodology or server placement > - Limited correlation with customer support tickets > - Generic results that don't reflect real-world usage patterns > - No integration with ISP operational systems > > *This platform enables (not only) ISPs to:* > > - Host their own testing infrastructure with full control > - Integrate with support systems via telemetry APIs > - Provide customers with realistic household testing scenarios > - Correlate test results with network performance and customer > complaints > > > *Open Source & Community* > > The entire platform is open source and available here: > https://github.com/LibreQoE/bufferbloat_test > > We've designed this to be: > > - Easy to deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size > - Scientifically meaningful in its measurement methodology > - Realistic in its simulation of actual household usage > - Integrable with existing ISP operational workflows > > > > *Community Feedback Requested* > We'd love feedback from the bufferbloat.net community on: > > - Test methodology: Are we measuring the right metrics? > - Grading thresholds: Do our A+ to F grades align with real-world > impact? > - Virtual household scenarios: What other realistic usage patterns > should we simulate? > - ISP adoption: What barriers exist for ISP deployment? > > > > *Technical Discussion* > We'd welcome discussion about: > > - Measurement accuracy for working latency and jitter in virtual > household mode > - Traffic pattern authenticity (gaming, video conferencing, streaming) > - Grading methodology for latency under load in complex multi-user > scenarios > - Integration approaches for ISP operational systems > > > The platform represents our attempt to bridge the gap between academic > bufferbloat research and practical ISP operations, building on the > foundational work of researchers like Dave T=C3=A4ht and the broader buff= erbloat > community. We believe that widespread ISP deployment of proper bufferbloa= t > testing infrastructure will ultimately benefit the entire internet > ecosystem. > > > *Looking forward to the community's thoughts and feedback!* > Best regards, > > The LibreQoS Team > > > *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 > > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com > > living as The Truth is True > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > _______________________________________________ > Cake mailing list > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake > --=20 Regards, Dave Seddon +1 415 857 5102 --000000000000f86f6506379fa9f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Very cool Frank!

When I run = it, it says all of my latency is 0.0ms.=C2=A0 This is=C2=A0firefox-139.0.1= =C2=A0on NixOS unstable.

I guess soem of the CORS= =C2=A0headers are screwed up?
Cross-Origin Request Blo= cked: The Same Origin Policy disallows reading the remote resource at https://test-elp= .libreqos.com:8005/ping?cb=3D242578. (Reason: CORS request did not succ= eed). Status code: (null).

I don't know, I gue= ss you probably _do_ want these objects to be cacheable=C2=A0via the CDN?

GET /ping?cb= =3D819806 HTTP/1.1
Host: t= est-elp.libreqos.com:8005
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64= ; rv:139.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/139.0
Accept: */*
Accept-Language:= en-US,en;q=3D0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate, br, zstd
Pragma: no-cache
Cache-Control: = no-store, no-cache, must-revalidate
X-Priority: high
X-Ping-At= tempt: 0
Referer: https://test.li= breqos.com/
Origin: https://te= st.libreqos.com
Connection: keep-alive
Sec-Fetch-Dest: empty
S= ec-Fetch-Mode: cors
Sec-Fetch-Site: same-site

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
date: Sun, 1= 5 Jun 2025 17:13:55 GMT
server: uvicorn
cache-control: no-store, no-cache, must-revalidate
= pragma: no-cache
x-ping-server: dedicated
x-priority-processed= : true
x-ping-timeouts-seen: 0
content-length: 4
content-type: tex= t/plain; charset=3Dutf-8
access-control-allow-origin: *
access-contro= l-allow-credentials: true

Your Nginx se= rver also can have caching enabled for the favorite icon, and the javascrip= t, which should make it faster to load.

HTTP/2 200
server: nginx/1.18.0 (Ubuntu)date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 17:13:35 GMT
content-type: text/javascript; char= set=3Dutf-8
vary: Accept-Encoding
last-modified: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 04:= 28:53 GMT
strict-transport-security: max-age=3D63072000
x-content-typ= e-options: nosniff
x-frame-options: SAMEORIGIN
content-encoding: gzip=
X-Firefox-Spdy: h2

I've found that you can set the caching for the CORS "preflight&= quot; requests too and it definitely helps. e.g.=C2=A0access-control= -max-age=C2=A0345600

On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at= 9:53=E2=80=AFAM Nils Andreas Svee via Cake <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Just tried it= too:=C2=A0https:= //imgur.com/a/F2cNZd4, also getting A+ overall, and "only" A = for bidirectional.

I seem to be getting a 200+ ms = spike right at the beginning of the baseline test, which skews the results.=
This happened at least on a couple of tests, but after a few tri= es it got better. At least with ICMP ping separately I don't see any sp= ikes like that.

Best Regards
Nils

On Su= n, Jun 15, 2025, at 23:20, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Bloat wrote= :
= re:=C2=A0thoughts and feedback!

your=C2=A0https://test.libreqos.com=C2=A0tests of [Single User Test= ] & [Virtual Household Mode] both give yours truly bufferbloat grades o= f A+=C2=A0

whereas the=C2=A0https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat=C2=A0test gi= ves yours truly a bufferbloat brade grade of C


#1.) Why/What's the difference?

#2.) Who/Which one to believe=C2=BF

g

On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM Frant= isek Borsik via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Hello to all,

We're excited to announce the release of the LibreQ= oS Bufferbloat Test =E2=80=93 an open-source bufferbloat testing soluti= on designed specifically for ISPs and network operators to deploy for their= customers.

Link
=

What Makes This Different

While there are several bufferbloat testing tools available, this platfo= rm addresses a critical gap: ISP-deployable infrastructure that provides bo= th traditional testing and realistic household simulation.

As Dave T=C3=A4ht highlighted in his influential article "What= 's Wrong with Speed Tests", traditional speed tests fail to me= asure what users actually experience. We tried to address Dave's points= to make a better speed test that focuses on the metric that matters: laten= cy under load in realistic usage scenarios.

Two= Complementary Test Modes

Single User Test = Mode
  • Traditional sequential load testing (baseline =E2=86= =92 download =E2=86=92 upload =E2=86=92 bidirectional)
  • Measures wor= king latency and jitter during each phase
  • Familiar A+ to F grading = based on latency under load increases
  • Comparable to existing tools = like DSLReports Speed Test and Waveform Bufferbloat Test

=
Virtual Household Mode (The Innovation)

Process-isolated simulation of 4 concurrent users with authentic tr= affic patterns:
  • Alex (Gaming): 1.5 Mbps constant, jitter-sensi= tive for competitive gaming
  • Sarah (Video Conference): 2.5 Mbps bidi= rectional, Teams simulation with working latency monitoring
  • Jake (N= etflix HD): 25 Mbps bursts (1s on, 4s off), realistic streaming patterns
  • Computer (Background): Up to 200 Mbps continuous download, system upd= ates

Real-world relevance: Tests latency under= load when multiple family members are online simultaneously

=
Advanced grading: Network fairness, jitter measurement, and per-= user working latency analysis

Why (not only) IS= Ps Need This

The traditional approach of se= nding customers to third-party speed test sites has limitations:
<= ul>
  • No control over test methodology or server placement
  • Limited= correlation with customer support tickets
  • Generic results that don= 't reflect real-world usage patterns
  • No integration with ISP op= erational systems
    • This platform enables (not only) ISPs to= :
    • Host their own testing infrastructure with full control<= /li>
    • Integrate with support systems via telemetry APIs
    • Provide c= ustomers with realistic household testing scenarios
    • Correlate test = results with network performance and customer complaints

    =
    Open Source & Community

    The = entire platform is open source and available here: https://github.com/Libre= QoE/bufferbloat_test

    We've designed this t= o be:
    • Easy to deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size
    • S= cientifically meaningful in its measurement methodology
    • Realistic i= n its simulation of actual household usage
    • Integrable with existing= ISP operational workflows

    Community Feedba= ck Requested
    We'd love feedback from the bufferbloat.net community on:<= /div>
    • Test methodology: Are we measuring the right metrics?
    • = Grading thresholds: Do our A+ to F grades align with real-world impact?
    • Virtual household scenarios: What other realistic usage patterns shoul= d we simulate?
    • ISP adoption: What barriers exist for ISP deployment= ?

    Technical Discussion
    We= 'd welcome discussion about:
    • Measurement accuracy for work= ing latency and jitter in virtual household mode
    • Traffic pattern au= thenticity (gaming, video conferencing, streaming)
    • Grading methodol= ogy for latency under load in complex multi-user scenarios
    • Integrat= ion approaches for ISP operational systems

    The= platform represents our attempt to bridge the gap between academic bufferb= loat research and practical ISP operations, building on the foundational wo= rk of researchers like Dave T=C3=A4ht and the broader bufferbloat community= . We believe that widespread ISP deployment of proper bufferbloat testing i= nfrastructure will ultimately benefit the entire internet ecosystem.
    <= div>
    Looking forward to the community's thoughts and f= eedback!
    Best regards,

    The Libre= QoS Team


    <= p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4h= t:=C2=A01965-2025

    https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01= /in-loving-memory-of-dave/


    =

    https://www.= linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

    Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

    iMessage, mobile: +420775230885=

    Skype: casioa5302ca<= /p>

    frantisek.borsik@gm= ail.com

    =
    _______________________________________________
    = Starlink mailing list
    https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


    --

    living as The Truth is True

    ____________________________= ___________________
    Bloat mailing list
    =

    _______________________________= ________________
    Cake mailing list
    Cake@lists.= bufferbloat.net
    https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake


    --
    Regards,
    Dave Seddon
    +1 415 857 5102
    --000000000000f86f6506379fa9f3--