From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp84.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp84.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 751BA3BA8E for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4611E5AAF; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:45:06 -0400 (EDT) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta Received: from smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 404F65ABB; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app9.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1F2B15AAF; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:45:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: dpreed@deepplum.com Received: from app9.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:45:06 -0400 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app9.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C38CA0504; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:45:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:45:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "David P. Reed" To: "Dave Taht" Cc: "Jonathan Foulkes" , ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20190315194506000000_92764" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: References: <1E80578D-A589-4CA0-9015-B03B63042355@gmx.de> <27FA673A-2C4C-4652-943F-33FAA1CF1E83@gmx.de> <1552669283.555112988@apps.rackspace.com> <7412ADED-D1F3-4C15-9703-0977E087013B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1552693506.047323810@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/16.2.2-RC Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [Bloat] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104 X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 23:45:06 -0000 ------=_20190315194506000000_92764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0AHow many applications used by normal users have "admin" privileges? The = Browser? Email? FTP?=0A =0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: "Dave Tah= t" =0ASent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:31pm=0ATo: "Jonat= han Foulkes" =0ACc: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net,= "bloat" =0ASubject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [Bloat] [i= ccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S= hackaton at IETF104=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 1:28 PM Jonathan Fo= ulkes wrote:=0A>=0A> All this discussion of DSCP m= arking brings to mind what happened on the Windows platform, where the OS h= ad to suppress ALL DSCP marks, as app authors were trying to game the syste= m.=0A> And even if not trying to =E2=80=98game=E2=80=99 it, they have non-o= bvious reasons why they don=E2=80=99t mark traffic how one would expect. Ex= ample:=0A>=0A> I know an engineer who works at a cloud-storage solution com= pany, and I asked why a long-standing customer request for DSCP marking (as= bulk) was not implemented. His answer was they=E2=80=99d never do that, as= that would impact benchmarks against their competitors for which service s= yncs faster. =0A>=0A> Which brings me to a question: Is anyone aware = of an easy to use Windows app that will allow the user to select an applica= tion and tell the OS to mark the traffic (all or by port) with a user selec= ted DSCP level?=0A> There are many guides on using regedit and other error-= prone (and geek-only) means of doing this, but is there a simple Windows 10= home app?=0A=0AWhen I last tried it (years ago), in order to set the tos b= its, an=0Aapplication merely had to have admin privs.=0A=0A> Now that Cake = is out there with simple DiffServ3 support, it would be nice to lower the p= riority of cloud-storage services and other bulk traffic by correctly marki= ng it at the origin.=0A>=0A> Cheers,=0A>=0A> Jonathan Foulkes=0A>=0A>=0A> >= On Mar 15, 2019, at 3:32 PM, Jonathan Morton wrote= :=0A> >=0A> >> On 15 Mar, 2019, at 8:36 pm, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:=0A> >>=0A> >> Having a "lower-than-best-effort" diffserve cod= epoint might work, because it means worse treatment, not preferential treat= ment.=0A> >>=0A> >> The problem with having DSCP CPs that indicate preferen= tial treatment is typically a ddos magnet.=0A> >=0A> > This is true, and al= so why I feel that just 2 bits should be sufficient for Diffserv (rather th= an 6). They are sufficient to express four different optimisation targets:= =0A> >=0A> > 0: Maximum Throughput (aka Best Effort)=0A> > 1: Minimum Cost = (aka Least Effort)=0A> > 2: Minimum Latency (aka Maximum Responsiveness)=0A= > > 3: Minimum Loss (aka Maximum Reliability)=0A> >=0A> > It is legitimate = for traffic to request any of these four optimisations, with the explicit t= radeoff of *not* necessarily getting optimisation in the other three dimens= ions.=0A> >=0A> > The old TOS spec erred in specifying 4 non-exclusive bits= to express this, in addition to 3 bits for a telegram-office style "priori= ty level" (which was very much ripe for abuse if not strictly admission-con= trolled). TOS was rightly considered a mess, but was replaced with Diffserv= which was far too loose a spec to be useful in practice.=0A> >=0A> > But t= hat's a separate topic from ECN per se.=0A> >=0A> > - Jonathan Morton=0A> >= =0A> > _______________________________________________=0A> > Bloat mailing = list=0A> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/= listinfo/bloat=0A>=0A> _______________________________________________=0A> = Bloat mailing list=0A> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> https://lists.buffer= bloat.net/listinfo/bloat=0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0A=0ADave T=C3=A4ht=0ACTO, TekLibre= , LLC=0Ahttp://www.teklibre.com=0ATel: 1-831-205-9740=0A___________________= ____________________________=0AEcn-sane mailing list=0AEcn-sane@lists.buffe= rbloat.net=0Ahttps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane ------=_20190315194506000000_92764 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

How many applications = used by normal users have "admin" privileges? The Browser? Email? FTP?

= =0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

-----Original Message-----
From: "Dave Taht" <dave= .taht@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:31pm
To: "Jona= than Foulkes" <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com>
Cc: ecn-sane@lists.buffer= bloat.net, "bloat" <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [E= cn-sane] [Bloat] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentatio= n of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

=0A
=0A

On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 1:28 PM Jon= athan Foulkes <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com> wrote:
>
> All= this discussion of DSCP marking brings to mind what happened on the Window= s platform, where the OS had to suppress ALL DSCP marks, as app authors wer= e trying to game the system.
> And even if not trying to =E2=80=98g= ame=E2=80=99 it, they have non-obvious reasons why they don=E2=80=99t mark = traffic how one would expect. Example:
>
> I know an engine= er who works at a cloud-storage solution company, and I asked why a long-st= anding customer request for DSCP marking (as bulk) was not implemented. His= answer was they=E2=80=99d never do that, as that would impact benchmarks a= gainst their competitors for which service syncs faster. <sigh>
= >
> Which brings me to a question: Is anyone aware of an easy to= use Windows app that will allow the user to select an application and tell= the OS to mark the traffic (all or by port) with a user selected DSCP leve= l?
> There are many guides on using regedit and other error-prone (= and geek-only) means of doing this, but is there a simple Windows 10 home a= pp?

When I last tried it (years ago), in order to set the tos bi= ts, an
application merely had to have admin privs.

> Now= that Cake is out there with simple DiffServ3 support, it would be nice to = lower the priority of cloud-storage services and other bulk traffic by corr= ectly marking it at the origin.
>
> Cheers,
>
= > Jonathan Foulkes
>
>
> > On Mar 15, 2019, a= t 3:32 PM, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:
> &= gt;
> >> On 15 Mar, 2019, at 8:36 pm, Mikael Abrahamsson <= swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> >>
> >> Having a = "lower-than-best-effort" diffserve codepoint might work, because it means w= orse treatment, not preferential treatment.
> >>
> &g= t;> The problem with having DSCP CPs that indicate preferential treatmen= t is typically a ddos magnet.
> >
> > This is true, a= nd also why I feel that just 2 bits should be sufficient for Diffserv (rath= er than 6). They are sufficient to express four different optimisation targ= ets:
> >
> > 0: Maximum Throughput (aka Best Effort)<= br />> > 1: Minimum Cost (aka Least Effort)
> > 2: Minimum= Latency (aka Maximum Responsiveness)
> > 3: Minimum Loss (aka M= aximum Reliability)
> >
> > It is legitimate for traf= fic to request any of these four optimisations, with the explicit tradeoff = of *not* necessarily getting optimisation in the other three dimensions.> >
> > The old TOS spec erred in specifying 4 non-excl= usive bits to express this, in addition to 3 bits for a telegram-office sty= le "priority level" (which was very much ripe for abuse if not strictly adm= ission-controlled). TOS was rightly considered a mess, but was replaced wit= h Diffserv which was far too loose a spec to be useful in practice.
&g= t; >
> > But that's a separate topic from ECN per se.
&g= t; >
> > - Jonathan Morton
> >
> > ____= ___________________________________________
> > Bloat mailing li= st
> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.= bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
> ________________________= _______________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.= bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



--

Dave T=C3=A4ht
CTO, TekLibre, LLChttp://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-831-205-9740
__________________= _____________________________
Ecn-sane mailing list
Ecn-sane@list= s.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane

= =0A
 ------=_20190315194506000000_92764--