From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp84.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp84.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7045B3CB35 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3C2335A89; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:07:17 -0400 (EDT) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta Received: from smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 359D56B02; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app11.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp35.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 100335A89; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app11.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:07:17 -0400 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app11.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEE3A0044; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:07:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:07:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "David P. Reed" To: "David P. Reed" Cc: "Mikael Abrahamsson" , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "bloat" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20190326130716000000_77351" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: <1553613152.830913564@apps.rackspace.com> References: <1553613152.830913564@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: <1553620036.976516932@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/16.2.2-RC Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] can we setup a X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 17:07:17 -0000 ------=_20190326130716000000_77351 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0ASmall comment on the closing metaphor. I was thinking in the "UNIX world= ".=0A =0ABut I think this is a much bigger deal than that. So the compari= son is really better when you think about how macOS replaced UNIX when user= experience started to matter to enable growth in the world.=0A =0ASo if yo= u wanted to improve the plumbing of Unix, it would have been a much bigger = deal to focus on Mach as it shaped the macOS evolution.=0A =0A(I do realize= that Linux is now the server platform of choice, and to a very small exten= t, plays a role in CE routers based on WRT. But Linux is a tiny specialized= part of the Internet.)=0A =0ASo again, I think the core question is about = the IP datagram and IP forwarding components, and if you want that to evolv= e to be a lot better as a "neck of the hourglass", keep your work laser-foc= used on this vague colossus called 5G by all the participants, even though = it is currently fragmented into all kinds of warring camps at the technolog= y level and at the applicaiton level. There will be a grand convergence.=0A= =0AThe worst possible case is that a new "neck of the interoperability hou= rglass" evolves in 5G-land, and IP becomes a minor and optional part of the= game.=0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: "David P. Reed" =0ASent: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 11:12am=0ATo: "Mikael Abrahamsso= n" =0ACc: "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "bloat" =0ASubject: Re: [E= cn-sane] can we setup a=0A=0A=0A=0AThis, and the general question of how to= get any change like this into the IP forwarding components of existing net= works, seems to be a very important and tough question.=0A=0AIETF seems to = be unable to mandate anything, even when there is rough consensus and worki= ng code.=0A=0AThe power has shifted to customers of equipment vendors.=0A= =0A=0AThe business innovation for those customers is now called 5G. That's = not the 3GPP standard called 5G, but a vague buzzword marketing race that p= retty much wants to make the Internet slowly die.=0A=0AFronts of that are:= =0A=0A1. IoT. Cloud-server-based. Uses IP but doesn't care about it. A new = "overlay internet" that doesn't get built by IETF at all.=0A=0A2. Small cel= ls instead of hotspots. Key is that small cells are owned by a telecom oper= ator, and though on or near private premises, the premise owners has no aut= hority over what traffic they transport. Business model includes your acces= s provider owning the wireless airtime in your home or business. No more Pr= ivate Branch Exchange style deals. Instead you lease a cell or mesh of cell= s from the cable or phone company you select as your 5G provider.=0A=0A3. P= WAs replace websites. Eventually, 5G operators own these "enclaves" on your= phone, Chromebook, Mac, ...that are controlled by the PWA vendor. The vend= ors, like PC ISVs used to, are closed and proprietary distributed app maker= s. The data of users is held in the enclaves and the "backends". Though W3C= protocols are used, including WebRTC, the way they are used by these busin= esses involves harvesting data about people and their behavior, kept secret= in cloud vaults to which each PWA has secure access. These vaults form a p= rivatized economy of information used to predict and control user behavior = through the PWAs that are hosted on user devices.=0A=0AGiven that evolution= of a new internetwork structure, how to get the plumbing fixed?=0A=0ASimpl= e: move the ideas to be central to 5G networking.=0A=0AAt the moment, 5G is= very much tangled with IP. That is rapidly changing as we speak.=0A=0AAlso= note that cablecos and cellularcos are converging to this definition of 5G= . Some tech is different: 802.11 is shifting to be part of cableco' offerin= g, while short range high speed 5G NR and mmWave are the new cellular hotsp= ots. But both are WLANs, and 802.11x is no longer peer to peer. But the ove= rall business goals are identical. There is a competitive war.=0A=0AMost of= IETF wirk is irrelevant and will be time wasted. Thus vision of 5G as repl= acing today's Internet is the context. Think Solaris as IETF Internet, 5G a= s RedHat.=0A=0A=0A----Original Message-----=0AFrom: "Mikael Abrahamsson" =0ASent: Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:20 am=0ATo: "Holland, Jake"= =0ACc: "Holland, Jake" , "ecn-sa= ne@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "bloat" =0ASubject: Re: [Ecn-sane] can we setup a "how to get= this into existingnetworks" get-together in Prague coming week?=0A=0AOn Tu= e, 26 Mar 2019, Holland, Jake wrote:=0A=0A> Hi Mikael,=0A>=0A> Any operator= nibbles on making this meeting happen?=0A=0ANobody else expressed any inte= rest in this, so I kind of dropped the idea.=0A=0A-- =0AMikael Abrahamsson = email: swmike@swm.pp.se=0A_______________________________________________= =0AEcn-sane mailing list=0AEcn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net=0Ahttps://lists.b= ufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane=0A=0A=0A__________________________________= _____________=0AEcn-sane mailing list=0AEcn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net=0Aht= tps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane ------=_20190326130716000000_77351 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Small comment on the c= losing metaphor. I was thinking in the "UNIX world".

=0A

 

=0A

But I think this is a much  big= ger deal than that.  So the comparison is really better when you think= about how macOS replaced UNIX when user experience started to matter to en= able growth in the world.

=0A

 

=0A

So if you wanted to improve the plumbing of Unix, it would hav= e been a much bigger deal to focus on Mach as it shaped the macOS evolution= .

=0A

 

=0A

(I do realiz= e that Linux is now the server platform of choice, and to a very small exte= nt, plays a role in CE routers based on WRT. But Linux is a tiny specialize= d part of the Internet.)

=0A

 

=0A

So again, I think the core question is about the IP datagram a= nd IP forwarding components, and if you want that to evolve to be a lot bet= ter as a "neck of the hourglass", keep your work laser-focused on this vagu= e colossus called 5G by all the participants, even though it is currently f= ragmented into all kinds of warring camps at the technology level and at th= e applicaiton level. There will be a grand convergence.

=0A

 

=0A

The worst possible case is that a= new "neck of the interoperability hourglass" evolves in 5G-land, and IP be= comes a minor and optional part of the game.

=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

-----Original Message-----
From: "David= P. Reed" <dpreed@deepplum.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 11= :12am
To: "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Cc: "ecn-= sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" <ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "bloat"= <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] can we se= tup a

=0A
=0A

This, and the general question of how to get any change like this int= o the IP forwarding components of existing networks, seems to be a very imp= ortant and tough question.

IETF seems to be unable to mandate an= ything, even when there is rough consensus and working code.

The= power has shifted to customers of equipment vendors.


The = business innovation for those customers is now called 5G. That's not the 3G= PP standard called 5G, but a vague buzzword marketing race that pretty much= wants to make the Internet slowly die.

Fronts of that are:

1. IoT. Cloud-server-based. Uses IP but doesn't care about it. A new= "overlay internet" that doesn't get built by IETF at all.

2. Sm= all cells instead of hotspots. Key is that small cells are owned by a telec= om operator, and though on or near private premises, the premise owners has= no authority over what traffic they transport. Business model includes you= r access provider owning the wireless airtime in your home or business. No = more Private Branch Exchange style deals. Instead you lease a cell or mesh = of cells from the cable or phone company you select as your 5G provider.
3. PWAs replace websites. Eventually, 5G operators own these "encl= aves" on your phone, Chromebook, Mac, ...that are controlled by the PWA ven= dor. The vendors, like PC ISVs used to, are closed and proprietary distribu= ted app makers. The data of users is held in the enclaves and the "backends= ". Though W3C protocols are used, including WebRTC, the way they are used b= y these businesses involves harvesting data about people and their behavior= , kept secret in cloud vaults to which each PWA has secure access. These va= ults form a privatized economy of information used to predict and control u= ser behavior through the PWAs that are hosted on user devices.

G= iven that evolution of a new internetwork structure, how to get the plumbin= g fixed?

Simple: move the ideas to be central to 5G networking.<= br />
At the moment, 5G is very much tangled with IP. That is rapidly = changing as we speak.

Also note that cablecos and cellularcos ar= e converging to this definition of 5G. Some tech is different: 802.11 is sh= ifting to be part of cableco' offering, while short range high speed 5G NR = and mmWave are the new cellular hotspots. But both are WLANs, and 802.11x i= s no longer peer to peer. But the overall business goals are identical. The= re is a competitive war.

Most of IETF wirk is irrelevant and wil= l be time wasted. Thus vision of 5G as replacing today's Internet is the co= ntext. Think Solaris as IETF Internet, 5G as RedHat.


----O= riginal Message-----
From: "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se&g= t;
Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:20 am
To: "Holland, Jake" <jho= lland@akamai.com>
Cc: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>, = "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" <ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "b= loat" <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] can = we setup a "how to get this into existingnetworks" get-together in Prague c= oming week?

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Holland, Jake wrote:

> Hi Mikael,
>
> Any operator nibbles on making this me= eting happen?

Nobody else expressed any interest in this, so I k= ind of dropped the idea.

--
Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmi= ke@swm.pp.se
_______________________________________________
Ecn-= sane mailing list
Ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bu= fferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane


__________________________= _____________________
Ecn-sane mailing list
Ecn-sane@lists.buffer= bloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane

=0A
= ------=_20190326130716000000_77351--