From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp124.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp124.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D9ED3CB36 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 11BA254CD; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:18:05 -0400 (EDT) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta Received: from smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0DDCA5429; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app58.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D77F654CD; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:18:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: dpreed@deepplum.com Received: from app58.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Wed, 03 Apr 2019 16:18:05 -0400 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app58.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B6520122; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:18:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:18:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "David P. Reed" To: "Dave Taht" Cc: "ECN-Sane" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20190403161804000000_19858" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1554322684.79873224@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/16.2.2-RC Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] where the l4s ect1 takeover is documented X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 20:18:05 -0000 ------=_20190403161804000000_19858 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0AA question from a bystander/ Why is the L4S proposal such a major fork t= hat it needs wo be thought of as if it were an alternative to current IPv4 = and IPv6 packets?=0A =0AShouldn't all traffic be in this new class called s= calable low loss low latency traffic?=0A =0AIn a sense, the proposal seems = to be like running two Internets (A and B) on the same cables.=0A =0AThat s= eems control-theoretically unstable since neither one knows about the other= , yet they share resources and influence the dynamics of each other.=0A =0A= One would need to prove that they are compatible and cause performance to c= onverge when used at the same time.=0A =0AIf that's been answered, great.= =0A =0ARemember, the IP datagram and routing layer is the single neck of th= e hourglass that regulates everything.=0A =0A =0A-----Original Message-----= =0AFrom: "Dave Taht" =0ASent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019= 11:30am=0ATo: "ECN-Sane" =0ASubject: [Ecn-= sane] where the l4s ect1 takeover is documented=0A=0A=0A=0AIt's in: Appendi= x B.1 of:=0A=0Ahttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-02#a= ppendix-B.1=0A=0AWhich is sort of like the vogons demolishing the internet = for a cable=0Aindustry bypass..=0A=0A=E2=80=9CBut the plans were on display= =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D=0A=E2=80=9COn display? I eventually had to go down to th= e cellar to find them.=E2=80=9D=0A=E2=80=9CThat=E2=80=99s the display depar= tment.=E2=80=9D=0A=E2=80=9CWith a flashlight.=E2=80=9D=0A=E2=80=9CAh, well,= the lights had probably gone.=E2=80=9D=0A=E2=80=9CSo had the stairs.=E2=80= =9D=0A=E2=80=9CBut look, you found the notice, didn=E2=80=99t you?=E2=80=9D= =0A=E2=80=9CYes,=E2=80=9D said Dave, =E2=80=9Cyes I did. It was on display = in the bottom of a=0Alocked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with= a sign on the=0Adoor saying =E2=80=98Beware of the Leopard.=E2=80=9D=0A=0A= =0A-- =0A=0ADave T=C3=A4ht=0ACTO, TekLibre, LLC=0Ahttp://www.teklibre.com= =0ATel: 1-831-205-9740=0A_______________________________________________=0A= Ecn-sane mailing list=0AEcn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net=0Ahttps://lists.buff= erbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane ------=_20190403161804000000_19858 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A question from a byst= ander/ Why is the L4S proposal such a major fork that it needs wo be though= t of as if it were an alternative to current IPv4 and IPv6 packets?

=0A<= p style=3D"margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size: 12pt; overflow= -wrap: break-word;"> 

=0A

Shouldn't all traffic= be in this new class called scalable low loss low latency traffic?

=0A<= p style=3D"margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size: 12pt; overflow= -wrap: break-word;"> 

=0A

In a sense, the propo= sal seems to be like running two Internets (A and B) on the same cables.=0A

 

=0A

That seems contr= ol-theoretically unstable since neither one knows about the other, yet they= share resources and influence the dynamics of each other.

=0A

 

=0A

One would need to prove that= they are compatible and cause performance to converge when used at the sam= e time.

=0A

 

=0A

If tha= t's been answered, great.

=0A

 

=0A

Remember, the IP datagram and routing layer is the single neck= of the hourglass that regulates everything.

=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

 

=0A

-----Origi= nal Message-----
From: "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Se= nt: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 11:30am
To: "ECN-Sane" <ecn-sane@lists= .bufferbloat.net>
Subject: [Ecn-sane] where the l4s ect1 takeover i= s documented

=0A
=0A

It's in: Appendix B.1 of:

https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-02#appendix-B.1

Which is sort of = like the vogons demolishing the internet for a cable
industry bypass..=

=E2=80=9CBut the plans were on display=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
= =E2=80=9COn display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them= .=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=9CThat=E2=80=99s the display department.=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9CWith a flashlight.=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=9CAh, well, the lights = had probably gone.=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=9CSo had the stairs.=E2=80=9D
= =E2=80=9CBut look, you found the notice, didn=E2=80=99t you?=E2=80=9D
= =E2=80=9CYes,=E2=80=9D said Dave, =E2=80=9Cyes I did. It was on display in = the bottom of a
locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with= a sign on the
door saying =E2=80=98Beware of the Leopard.=E2=80=9D

--

Dave T=C3=A4ht
CTO, TekLibre, LLC
h= ttp://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-831-205-9740
______________________= _________________________
Ecn-sane mailing list
Ecn-sane@lists.bu= fferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane

=0A ------=_20190403161804000000_19858--