From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp92.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp92.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BF0D3B2A4 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp28.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp28.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id ED5985146; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:05:37 -0400 (EDT) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=g001.emailsrvr.com; s=20190322-9u7zjiwi; t=1561496737; bh=DA/R1MgE8X6JmgUCcz41DOKFRP783/fhmA7xBnQdCrg=; h=Date:Subject:From:To:From; b=pqbuc4GX4R4pfpKOLctgH5X7geXHVOkPtNaSCYaBAhUJgnj8GUi6GgGUkY1ai4w19 waKff3uWqNgiUE1nZtZY0O+fJY6su9xGMXzqGpTWfzhKxjBLLYZ4w/gWuzeG2Mcril y9/IeH3wLyHVrJ46HlGIohWK9HibT6GdnbkZsq9w= Received: from app29.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp28.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C09CB4EA1; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:05:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: dpreed@deepplum.com Received: from app29.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:05:37 -0400 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app29.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1FA20048; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:05:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:05:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "David P. Reed" To: "Jonathan Morton" Cc: "Brian E Carpenter" , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "tsvwg IETF list" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20190625170537000000_99001" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: <47796622-E118-4437-A5FD-C9DA766CB917@gmail.com> References: <350f8dd5-65d4-d2f3-4d65-784c0379f58c@bobbriscoe.net> <46D1ABD8-715D-44D2-B7A0-12FE2A9263FE@gmx.de> <835b1fb3-e8d5-c58c-e2f8-03d2b886af38@gmail.com> <1561233009.95886420@apps.rackspace.com> <71EF351D-AFBF-4C92-B6B9-7FD695B68815@gmail.com> <1561241377.4026977@apps.rackspace.com> <081BAF4F-2E1C-441B-A31A-9AC70E3EDA32@gmail.com> <1561402678.523819778@apps.rackspace.com> <7F847464-70DD-4F9F-8CA5-DD3C8B65689C@gmail.com> <1561405845.46329325@apps.rackspace.com> <47796622-E118-4437-A5FD-C9DA766CB917@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1561496737.636610480@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/16.4.5-RC Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [tsvwg] per-flow scheduling X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 21:05:38 -0000 ------=_20190625170537000000_99001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0ASo, go for it, then. I wish you well.=0A =0AOn Monday, June 24, 2019 4:1= 4pm, "Jonathan Morton" said:=0A=0A=0A=0A> > On 24 J= un, 2019, at 10:50 pm, David P. Reed =0A> wrote:=0A> >= =0A> > My overall point here is that you seem to live in a world of academi= c-like=0A> purity - all TCP connections are essentially huge file transfers= , where there are=0A> no delays on production or consumption of packets at = the endpoint, there is no=0A> multiplexing or scheduling of processes in th= e endpoint operating systems, etc.=0A> =0A> On the contrary, I've found tha= t per-flow queuing algorithms like DRR++ cope=0A> naturally and very nicely= with all sorts of deviations from the ideal, including=0A> for example the= wild variations in goodput and RTT associated with wifi links.=0A> =0A> Th= ese are exactly the kinds of complication that I imagine - and not merely i= n the=0A> abstract but through observation - that a pure end-to-end approac= h would have=0A> great difficulty in accommodating elegantly.=0A> =0A> - Jo= nathan Morton=0A> =0A> ------=_20190625170537000000_99001 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So, go for it, then. I= wish you well.

=0A

 

=0A


=0A
=0A

> > On 24 Jun, 2019, at 10:50 pm, David P. Reed <dpr= eed@deepplum.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > My over= all point here is that you seem to live in a world of academic-like
&g= t; purity - all TCP connections are essentially huge file transfers, where = there are
> no delays on production or consumption of packets at th= e endpoint, there is no
> multiplexing or scheduling of processes i= n the endpoint operating systems, etc.
>
> On the contrary= , I've found that per-flow queuing algorithms like DRR++ cope
> nat= urally and very nicely with all sorts of deviations from the ideal, includi= ng
> for example the wild variations in goodput and RTT associated = with wifi links.
>
> These are exactly the kinds of compli= cation that I imagine - and not merely in the
> abstract but throug= h observation - that a pure end-to-end approach would have
> great = difficulty in accommodating elegantly.
>
> - Jonathan Mort= on
>
>

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