Re: [Ecn-sane] Fwd: [PATCH net-next] tcp: avoid negotitating ECN for BBR

[Pete Heist <pete@heistp.net>]

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It doesn't look like the patch to set TCP_CONG_DONT_USE_ECN in BBRv1
was ever applied, but it also doesn't look like v1 was ever modified to
react to CE, whereas BBRv3 appears to:

https://github.com/google/bbr/blob/v3/README.md#enabling-ecn-support

I'll post something about ecn_low separately.

Pete

On Mon, 2023-11-27 at 19:12 -0500, Dave Taht via Ecn-sane wrote:
> Was this ever resolved?
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>
> Date: Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 2:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next] tcp: avoid negotitating ECN for BBR
> To: <ycheng@google.com>
> Cc: <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, <edumazet@google.com>,
> <ysseung@google.com>, <ncardwell@google.com>
> 
> 
> From: Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com>
> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:57:26 -0800
> 
> > This patch keeps BBR from negotiating ECN if sysctl ECN is
> > set. Prior to this patch, BBR negotiates ECN if enabled, sends
> > CWR upon receiving ECE ACKs but does not react to them. This can
> > cause confusion from the protocol perspective. Therefore this
> > patch prevents the connection from negotiating ECN if BBR is the
> > congestion control during the handshake.
> > 
> > Note that after the handshake, the user can still switch to a
> > different congestion control that supports or even requires ECN
> > (e.g. DCTCP).  In that case, the connection can not re-negotiate
> > ECN and has to go with the ECN-free mode in that congestion
> > control.
> > 
> > There are other cases BBR would still respond to ECE ACKs with CWR
> > but does not react to it like the behavior before this patch.
> > First,
> > when the user switches to BBR congestion control but the connection
> > has already negotiated ECN before. Second, the system has
> > configured
> > the ip route and/or uses eBPF to enable ECN on the connection that
> > uses BBR congestion control.
> > 
> > Signed-off-by: Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com>
> > Signed-off-by: Neal Cardwell <ncardwell@google.com>
> > Acked-by: Yousuk Seung <ysseung@google.com>
> > Acked-by: Eric Dumazet <edumazet@google.com>
> 
> Well, this is a bit disappointing.  I'm having trouble justifying
> applying this.
> 
> Why doesn't BBR react to ECN notifications?  Is it because BBR's
> idea of congestion differs from the one ECN is likely indicating?
> 
> This is really unfortunate, because if BBR does become quite
> prominent
> (that's what you want right? :-) then what little success there has
> been deploying working ECN will be for almost nothing, and there
> will be little incentive for further ECN deployment.
> 
> And the weird behavior you list in your last paragraph, about how if
> the user switches to BBR then ECN will be active, is just a red flag
> that shows perhaps this is a bad idea overall.
> 
> ECN behavior should not be so tightly bound to the congestion control
> algorithm like this, it's a connection property independant of
> congestion control algorithm.
> 
> I'm not applying this for now, sorry.  Maybe if you significantly
> enhance the commit message and try to do something sane with the
> algorithm switching case it is work a respin.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 


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