From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BA4D3CB37 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2023 09:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2c9b9191722so3923801fa.1 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2023 06:03:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1701180201; x=1701785001; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=3Ui0DBuISxH4ECX8hnw6igTha+ASb1PWcnnMIZ6OH7A=; b=VW2+rHcVR7fiOPtzTQz2E1+AKHn7HKWORc65U7nCMCQylKlTBsA+6v9UoQHWsEUdWr /Q0APUZR4XpViBCXXjMIThllwo/CCuEn+uJWCoiZU/LFreHj3QEav50sYw4qnOs5jamH M5eLtA88IvaApNudgOCsVSPlJLkceax4bXuk5JRcsddztobh3CSus+8MldRN4BUCedMH Fs4xXpB6JDxgWbQbc9vkEkq1fKRmrsHdJKpQJn9TWGPnAG3fDD23RZtB37OgItNGadgc /kkZ5Q4KtyszlI6rVUxSh5XWRb3tRpsGlUN3rs7YtG5KNuq00BF0ncY92J6kFi/4lkla k4nA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1701180201; x=1701785001; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3Ui0DBuISxH4ECX8hnw6igTha+ASb1PWcnnMIZ6OH7A=; b=xT7DHIiZsFbKSwKW4zDmjeeROdYSu9KUNnNzOiuChDfDETHLgZVJb0BX6SmXzXkiOC xKLQjxukWUXxjKY7MKhtUJFklA9MqmkdnP/Jq/pyPzVBrSwR4DdV+qXQ0p7b47Al/QvT 09/a7j9RAbr5dAXbr699748bRHlcToKFGGxkY3tSJtdLxeEOXlmzPdCyiop0f5vLDou5 vZgAYjemp4xJ/9c7xtr6JtN36I3r69C17fqebdgaYihLq9tjmRwg9wwhpHU4RICV5S1W 8En0lXCtYQe1Ai8SD3DODK/mqwOFdUd/px1faT7Iw4qAfRaBoCQCAXMNvvD5j/Ptls5/ O3qQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzrBXCUK0DKk8FCD8xKdNbBgkyG8xbxCVjkoCRGi7XtnhfYnClQ td2G2pfmgFzfey8WkLgyh8mjU3dz91s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGXXf+0pSu6o/3Sy3lROm334Mm5F2AV3EdBjjtg1+8FtG6AJwnMkuDFWIPy8ojexk5A+a0RNQ== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:1619:0:b0:2c9:a9b8:710a with SMTP id w25-20020a2e1619000000b002c9a9b8710amr2279588ljd.34.1701180200431; Tue, 28 Nov 2023 06:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (37-219-218-208.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi. [37.219.218.208]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q14-20020a2e874e000000b002c9b6a0d7d3sm172625ljj.37.2023.11.28.06.03.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Nov 2023 06:03:19 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 16:03:18 +0200 Cc: ECN-Sane Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <16FCEB18-8C61-4EDB-9C1A-4EEAE266F6FE@gmail.com> References: To: Pete Heist X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] BBRv3 ecn_low per-route feature and the CE confusion X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 14:03:22 -0000 > On 28 Nov, 2023, at 2:57 pm, Pete Heist via Ecn-sane = wrote: >=20 > This isn't a problem with BBR. The problem is, we've started an > experiment [RFC9331] that redefines the meaning of CE in a way that's > incompatible with existing RFC3168 middleboxes. This feature in BBR is > just a reflection of that. CCA developers are now tasked with somehow > deciding which type of CE they're seeing. >=20 > Speaking of ecn "sane", does anyone else see this as not? :) and as a > problem that needs solving? Count me in the "not sane" camp, at least. This is exactly the kind of = ambiguity that SCE is designed to avoid. - Jonathan Morton=