From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com (mail-lj1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C32FB3B2A4 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id h10so6315626ljg.0 for ; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 07:03:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Gc+Jju07t1j7FIbYUVM+uICKr2nRnDO+kWx/NVuIDTU=; b=tC4bWKiVei4qbbS0kVFcnpeO011Hd0dRXoAEXZS9fCJj4mlcmrErdtLXXr+u+JPfzt 8kTZ77qfladhJPeh+gr0zUQLFmD7P5QvIvHEkETPyOF4dhTN3NBqmnHcf8dGLhlFjvu2 Jte1QkGyOcGXm/M0KY94uRlVxzYtQC7HWyo28B3Ufd0Zewss8Rs8mYkOEsWwmefLf+tG XhYlPh/StE4SjXv7qqxHkOQ7n94YUnO4eR1SSdiTmfAXFQa+ig9Q3MXjWcNdRtCWoCrB i289uEDiBe9lPkzkpPOuGnFD7SCZhQuAm/Qebwt3D6+9/ZgYkOBGngFNQwKZexsMMo4I sC4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Gc+Jju07t1j7FIbYUVM+uICKr2nRnDO+kWx/NVuIDTU=; b=h2Rdi1HJuaiUFi0iFYwCoe72B6P03KdKPaetZisxJ3h/26hfeUNniHVqX+YxZkVFRf Nr0KNbdPbnXEOhs9p3YmjPSka7MacuAVoild0XepMn9oTeaWIDag+n7qgAbzljyLWWFn XtwdR6Q4+5jEy6ci5nbugMXPvl58Xr3BhW0dC3h+A9zrk8OLTGSffwvChjFwaGDriYs+ LNusufTGRfJK9+OGytUARKGNcEtNpqtsrMFCwo2zQmNbtFaMME4sS3WswH3ciRnSVmXH zeHgtXy9TBAqk6fI8Old8onvdZ0xDNhy5vtcEIL5wSHO1jbgj+tcXOESUXjZ/8kxKOcN 641g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVJxLyKZw9GYlMTBAtM1qX7D+0x7tEJiIRIU+LDqADo8GTplt5q Uo0nTwaZZEU9pzrEtMadIHk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxPBIgy0PhqxUXhHCl0Oc6ZqBeNoy7ySUXsybAexBfHUFtdMnN8kmknLp9J35eSKl973qKZGQ== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3807:: with SMTP id f7mr24075106lja.87.1562248988688; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-232-91-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.232.91]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m25sm186055lfc.83.2019.07.04.07.03.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Jul 2019 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 17:03:06 +0300 Cc: Bob Briscoe , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <17B33B39-D25A-432C-9037-3A4835CCC0E1@gmail.com> References: <364514D5-07F2-4388-A2CD-35ED1AE38405@akamai.com> <4aff6353-eb0d-b0b8-942d-9c92753f074e@bobbriscoe.net> <1238A446-6E05-4A55-8B3B-878C8F39FC75@gmail.com> To: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [tsvwg] Comments on L4S drafts X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 14:03:10 -0000 > On 4 Jul, 2019, at 4:43 pm, De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) = wrote: >=20 > So conclusion: a DualQ works exactly the same as any other single Q = AQM supporting ECN !! > Try it, and you'll see... But that's exactly the problem. Single queue AQM does not isolate L4S = traffic from "classic" traffic, so the latter suffers from the former's = relative aggression in the face of AQM activity. This isolation is the = very reason why something like DualQ is proposed, so the fact that it = can be defeated into this degraded single-queue mode is a genuine = problem. May I direct you to our LFQ draft, published yesterday, for what we = consider to be a much more robust approach, yet with similar hardware = requirements to DualQ? I'd be interested in hearing feedback. - Jonathan Morton=