From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from server.dnsblock1.com (server.dnsblock1.com [85.13.236.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93D703B2A4 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2019 10:12:54 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From:Cc:To:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=QO844UbKeiHaXlBies6Cx9rAlb9ttF87X7dHWV+UJro=; b=nvEJ3c/xpEoZLReedIdMueHXHT JpAh+S6X9lD84Y9wgZevJn2zziePVpTwFZsW2cMJ6dbOWnspLhljCR85fYq/lr5gt4Tk2o1NG8ix6 Dw824/+5N7XvTgKXOSJFf/Y+vtMP+4dLOVoFGsJWb98GecurWtsXOH1KfDPtzfNFLdxV3xt4RkMwz zG1whltZrUG2DYM3/QnAGMIxcVOxxSOMMS/90PyIkh2YfrSapCXrXz8r7qav7Vwg8VtJjHWT0S6+D mL9vk/+SE0pE+vyLRVeJ5YeorO6pgjwkN7dapyEz1x7Y3e3RADLn5sbrCYawtjvc7za7fbeIjZ8z0 4S2WsKTA==; Received: from [31.185.128.20] (port=33016 helo=[192.168.0.6]) by server.dnsblock1.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hdbKX-0007CJ-IZ; Wed, 19 Jun 2019 15:12:53 +0100 To: "Holland, Jake" Cc: "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , tsvwg IETF list From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: <350f8dd5-65d4-d2f3-4d65-784c0379f58c@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 15:12:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server.dnsblock1.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lists.bufferbloat.net X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server.dnsblock1.com: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: server.dnsblock1.com: in@bobbriscoe.net Subject: [Ecn-sane] per-flow scheduling X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 14:12:54 -0000 Jake, all, You may not be aware of my long history of concern about how per-flow scheduling within endpoints and networks will limit the Internet in future. I find per-flow scheduling a violation of the e2e principle in such a profound way - the dynamic choice of the spacing between packets - that most people don't even associate it with the e2e principle. I detected that you were talking about FQ in a way that might have assumed my concern with it was just about implementation complexity. If you (or anyone watching) is not aware of the architectural concerns with per-flow scheduling, I can enumerate them. I originally started working on what became L4S to prove that it was possible to separate out reducing queuing delay from throughput scheduling. When Koen and I started working together on this, we discovered we had identical concerns on this. Bob -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/