From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D0C43B29E for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 18:39:27 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1657492765; bh=9S/oHsJABXvf4x1R9YOW9MAVYCOljjOHhw+tXIzAUWo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=Y60yVxuW6xMqYZQTHweYWI0hfnYI4kjSCjk09rPlggk00EUy+VBwXedolOqxQTCgO Imh11mhGiojv9wkmhir5f1Zu4jIuPa3wGZuH0tKqyb0faJ6zYLeKvrQo0c3z26N3Gy /ka5hRujfnnbU9lcbftQNQy9RI8fMr/C/IH2Orkw= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.3.115.149]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M2f5T-1o8kZW24nn-004E94; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 00:39:25 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.100.31\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 00:39:24 +0200 Cc: ECN-Sane Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <439C4423-E453-49AC-9B67-398C0812F517@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.100.31) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:d6GGZJuOOxrs3VWo3LufSIerSi3x94mODrHhvYXnaE/MSQVzJBb odu91LCIhY8df1c5gaFrEnBUGWHODUBHcxxSgK3CpqRMrsMx5/C1DIlryBy2o5ZltOecVhu exDHyXnUmZaXJ6YMVpOeuL4nr+NZpz2MQu5xCMpDtds8tTfXgC9tv94segPkTd3WkKESAqI QrcJKZqyHtXpUG6IXhGNw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:06FgHTh5vmQ=:KBZ/jGFWY2PtXFWkab7bHD /jnrSCMNkDZhNDAB2aN9at/2euUL/BnN+SWrUtJw80GY0mX/JjaiBccg367wJeEE6MQL7itUk 3yyfKZreCGpsRXBs3mZtmEb7WWDBCLOJ3wa1SKMjldqXPFLBtmD1v1GxnfZrQRiGIoTK+ewOR gbo2fF/zxmNS9O+QF5gsWyrMPqsWqORcYYErDnB9LuckGg8KzdqPITtTwyEPGVpAlwzFDswcv Zher8u0X4nNCD9H/hg8JDYB646VsYwwWGZ1x8hTqGxmHFUZWmPcYsMhnAmy2LGAhxl29VV08w qpPK/5sHYbI0Qqc5nrqSbE6UeYQ1TL2c2YpVwyjaSPhjn00HuT1blszIUgHk7cyRcnrsMfspj ec/ehVlsLdTWL6Xh1Hisdt9rB5PqO5oxORVMyw2AFi0UFucV/p4S4xRkvpputtxgn3W0yTsqz bmMrg/IdnKqZBcVHZ+qcNWDEqfbBtwO1gJyRII9gv46vPSEpgXiZhssQtqaYbIkpJ9NRm2gKB DHRXJfpbMZz4enxDDViUVLi//IZRmEeG+47lK9mKOcIQ68higGWo4mRdUk2ZH9dFAGQEayJ8A MYl72GYYdHyBBLvzfNp5FycHAS+b3/mxBrL3WuPnbe3fqX8vKv+dlGNoxb9f/aQN08WyxN+BI fXxHXXkgUWpWA/qocOqg7ThJJNfTUlj4rOFN/AQm4ngN19QEpnAF/qK1HYEX6AovHmE3GAIZw e8aS0NdG0hvT1adSaLZ1FpNorX2zH9POhtU9s9JiqjbbtTFTwFnbq+vxy/ZbnKAyMmPDVDq6j T/SJ3sY+B8b/gby/cRhGg2QKISJ8iQd+OW8CcAGkWRcXGrj57zt0A2/IEvdISYZk7ARQquJTs WJ9Jrn5uVz3aLDomZb2zaFpAsg/4Sb0zsaokh6NRAE0cDoEl/CxG8NM29pTTC5M18lQiCMunH A42ztT4PV6fbGBlZklvZikfczfnz9KMPYOq4w+BztPTj8IK23uBmTvZ7B6uUhJvfhEWo7FMu/ 0lkbQEsZnwcdKYh9jxg02tU/o6bk4LcVW02LtUZDVkS2w1LyPHEGlYEbGXMNPMHB9H9xkMqXX UAf0q0x5hv8RY0hn2ayhJFWl0kGG7qzwqxkoTlLqoRmfR+aBR+LaikHEg== Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] l4s threats X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 22:39:27 -0000 Hi Dave. Thanks a lot. I seems that the predicted "allergy" against bursty = traffic indeed exists in L4S implementations in the field. This IMHO is = problematic, given that some applications that are interested in low = latency are also interested in sending bunches of packets ASAP, or put = differently in bursts... Happy that actual research is done on this by outside groups that have = no pony in the race. However I am not sure that their stated goal of = retrofitting detection of and counter measures against bursty flows is = going to solve the problem that a number of bona-fide low latency = use-cases are also bursty. To put it bluntly, L4S seems having been developed without a deeper = understanding of what kind of low latency service (at least some type = of) applications actually desire/require. Puzzled as so often, on why = this is being forced through the IETF process in spite of looking like = it at best is half-baked. Regards Sebastian > On Jul 10, 2022, at 22:29, Dave Taht via Ecn-sane = wrote: >=20 > = https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-1713495/v1_covered.pdf?c=3D1654= 295892 >=20 > --=20 > FQ World Domination pending: = https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Ecn-sane mailing list > Ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane