From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D1003B29E for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id i21so13886830ljj.3 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2019 13:14:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=mqK6MRIxHoFmcYLV1y5Cbjt2XFYZYesLDRNuaeU/Kdc=; b=r+N7v1l61DHg0BdoeK93Tc0eA+GJtZoTpKlzR4A9peHkLhwr1ANqNJsMnyTi/vS00z 4OlX02lXM1jH/lNZ1Yx/RkkO3lcU0a1tn8mfzcn2AfDLA+TRkw3Y/ogpd3RvC+2t8YYT pNtLGIoB8zgOsiXluUK0+NT8VaQaWQ1BD4vYfA3w+xXpRDEEmYG0sN5iiv2eB+Y7BUq+ 6lTs7DOq5svX1Mlynf9dG2PnA761xzK58WvVpqEyX/3rIzEyHKcgPGHWdPhxd+LpYe/f F8gkta+7Lh8FU0MIREPg6aZoF3Qy63BBeDDWu7pe9rHts+Utf738frUH+GukPURof3Jm Okvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=mqK6MRIxHoFmcYLV1y5Cbjt2XFYZYesLDRNuaeU/Kdc=; b=MJEtXtakLmQvuKv5Aj8e2majHZqVdLenkbzzKPSW7P3olby5GOrnisurkNkelvM6a5 f+/0kKEOv2sTdwAuRNOl/NVHi8wksC6Az/DdOFMUHNPzmTZ9/GWY+Dpc0HhAhc5f669B cdcphAfwP9hLB2ULwKG7UjqK6tfvjikbok4/cTm3YBW1KzU6uEd9wVImTsofUjjCoF5l WNdaLqp0Fq9nVi374a45waZYeqCukuxNRZ0RievYOt4HUAVf3hjJvmHX0t6rG1uvmchk Cwgz6EOcA3SVMcoW3HHp42my9ARRS87RvYZuYIti4dvWzTMt2aN77fXp9LKg6y8m/n2J AI3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWefzvJW9qm7KVEaAwXu/lYiHqEx1e+ck/T6D8xjLNSV4GBM+dv djS/uAvf4xfAsZLWHJw0UEI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy33cU2u9+b1b64zmolhu+CWYkcC8UWU3aANNtHFeWxAXIUO4X4tOSlmYTjKY6LBMoedLobmA== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:6348:: with SMTP id x69mr72801667ljb.186.1561407263709; Mon, 24 Jun 2019 13:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-234-188-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.234.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f30sm1670175lfa.48.2019.06.24.13.14.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 24 Jun 2019 13:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jonathan Morton X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <1561405845.46329325@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 23:14:06 +0300 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , tsvwg IETF list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <47796622-E118-4437-A5FD-C9DA766CB917@gmail.com> References: <350f8dd5-65d4-d2f3-4d65-784c0379f58c@bobbriscoe.net> <46D1ABD8-715D-44D2-B7A0-12FE2A9263FE@gmx.de> <835b1fb3-e8d5-c58c-e2f8-03d2b886af38@gmail.com> <1561233009.95886420@apps.rackspace.com> <71EF351D-AFBF-4C92-B6B9-7FD695B68815@gmail.com> <1561241377.4026977@apps.rackspace.com> <081BAF4F-2E1C-441B-A31A-9AC70E3EDA32@gmail.com> <1561402678.523819778@apps.rackspace.com> <7F847464-70DD-4F9F-8CA5-DD3C8B65689C@gmail.com> <1561405845.46329325@apps.rackspace.com> To: "David P. Reed" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [tsvwg] per-flow scheduling X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:14:25 -0000 > On 24 Jun, 2019, at 10:50 pm, David P. Reed = wrote: >=20 > My overall point here is that you seem to live in a world of = academic-like purity - all TCP connections are essentially huge file = transfers, where there are no delays on production or consumption of = packets at the endpoint, there is no multiplexing or scheduling of = processes in the endpoint operating systems, etc. On the contrary, I've found that per-flow queuing algorithms like DRR++ = cope naturally and very nicely with all sorts of deviations from the = ideal, including for example the wild variations in goodput and RTT = associated with wifi links. These are exactly the kinds of complication that I imagine - and not = merely in the abstract but through observation - that a pure end-to-end = approach would have great difficulty in accommodating elegantly. - Jonathan Morton