From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 111F73B2A4 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 16so8980500ljv.10 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2019 13:48:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=3LOsEOPscwybareGuAVhYxOJK0BDraq5pFShSPaV7AM=; b=aYsOB5MO2fdKiRy8Jpu03laasDEJRfqZz9HzwPjPfLwEI+6OleNzWExpzHJrKroplh oH11WEZDi87FaS/iyX54iP1HO3r1lFkVRKFVPLnpsXQDCXn0WSo/FEhu6zWcJV92idW3 vTcMGoyMDoV6lpAfV1Fd2WoqzRMRcQfE6BNG2UivcgMi5rJ9R9pQLFZgV/UXRrYonmsh e3ec7xE+wZRnML6FAiIWGrIykV9TZKV1+irfBz59bmgonT9HjfBCk4c2pghQUzwJfPUO /t0A6ZkVz14W9qeSsa7ZyA+CHnKLN76hcjiHmc0gdJpNhudFKERScmphqWaAGppzoy1J 8waQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=3LOsEOPscwybareGuAVhYxOJK0BDraq5pFShSPaV7AM=; b=B+8PRiLVTW6MSUfubhoFxueAqrKauYBm8LRPM3Q8XbnDfrCCglJ4R7yKFhjE1QkNRi jOXeT78EHU3cD8kh2xEKZGskC4f9PFKnW/vUtekmbRPO7IPep1tYrlu/JESEzq/Rd/74 vSIomTUXJKffvYj3tJrdL3hz+HTeCCFyfkoRBIGdBxiXKjxGOth+YuUK0hkZKguUZaH2 y4DNlCN2NsbAwMVPFvwG3GzRvxvITGQsp97rxUBXAc4WPuwBlXdNisb8n0rgfpiYboVM gujwEsv5C+4K5alaiJJw1uYHQ5tpuqj4CzzEKGDqUayTUF9jxehtf49zouG2MGk1nmd8 oyiw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUNaElhsC5E5Hwr4GZoOdIFlXvehD2BFTWtgJOLG3kwK3HmatFF bfPIgBhIJ1hnDbmNyfJEyRk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxTXc+wBiL6MDa6yc/Dn46zgXdz3+s//NLnS4aaVloSPqxG0Qt169wBs6ZPT5f287QlFkbQVA== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:1201:: with SMTP id t1mr50179318lje.153.1561236479860; Sat, 22 Jun 2019 13:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-253-251-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.253.251]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t15sm897020lff.94.2019.06.22.13.47.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 22 Jun 2019 13:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jonathan Morton X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <1561233009.95886420@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 23:47:57 +0300 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , tsvwg IETF list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71EF351D-AFBF-4C92-B6B9-7FD695B68815@gmail.com> References: <350f8dd5-65d4-d2f3-4d65-784c0379f58c@bobbriscoe.net> <46D1ABD8-715D-44D2-B7A0-12FE2A9263FE@gmx.de> <835b1fb3-e8d5-c58c-e2f8-03d2b886af38@gmail.com> <1561233009.95886420@apps.rackspace.com> To: "David P. Reed" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [tsvwg] per-flow scheduling X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:48:01 -0000 > On 22 Jun, 2019, at 10:50 pm, David P. Reed = wrote: >=20 > Pragmatic networks (those that operate in the real world) do not = choose to operate with shared links in a saturated state. That's known = in the phone business as the Mother's Day problem. You want to have = enough capacity for the rare near-overload to never result in = congestion. This is most likely true for core networks. However, I know of several = real-world networks and individual links which, in practice, are = regularly in a saturated and/or congested state. Indeed, the average Internet consumer's ADSL or VDSL last-mile link = becomes saturated for a noticeable interval, every time his operating = system or game vendor releases an update. In my case, I share a 3G/4G = tower's airtime with whatever variable number of subscribers to the same = network happen to be in the area on any given day; today, during = midsummer weekend, that number is considerably inflated compared to = normal, and my available link bandwidth is substantially impacted as a = result, indicating congestion. I did not see anything in your argument specifically about per-flow = scheduling for the simple purpose of fairly sharing capacity between = flows and/or between subscribers, and minimising the impact of elephants = on mice. Empirical evidence suggests that it makes the network run more = smoothly. Does anyone have a concrete refutation? - Jonathan Morton=