From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pl1-x62b.google.com (mail-pl1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 798C83B29E for ; Fri, 10 May 2019 16:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id d3so3327342plj.11 for ; Fri, 10 May 2019 13:34:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rM10ZzOsHGLfP2DGaJu7iyiX+uTX6YZ8JuHVJPP6KHE=; b=dgvqb0x0/xC0iJv/YGnUew6ilTaS3Q6NB0+LMvWfVPHD97ToSYs/fGhs+wfU7v+g63 MQgvherAysje7ULdU6Ghyn5xSOn37KwAgmsbc0QcyklPpLNwN6JAl3LMUSUWcg9Pzj3l u8hwyy0aKb8E14y1rCOo6LUlene1eCTHoATnUelcy0LnL0f8yLlaqUfKNBvb/cFlEDWV Wd5irgpHfqUUhRCODPWTDVPGG3Bpt//MBoHk+DVGqwkSwEegLKt/5SJrwptz7/AUdQms 73F3V+KVixWP7nJbMUkXCwr/tzAeaOZc6O99XksEdJs7N33rfFH/PTQAngZUA8qPklo5 vawQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rM10ZzOsHGLfP2DGaJu7iyiX+uTX6YZ8JuHVJPP6KHE=; b=klHewJqZZs62m38/+wL6+XkMDV612SxIOEcGg2dOwrbleCmXvw9l3VOFqdufMQf6+6 RXRDHMg2SKPRxePAYLRor0swyBqfR7IuT/zVuZ92tIH/efO7s9fYr0WvtCOpYamGMGMM c7OlfUXGxNKZmjC7u8OkjrEE0sIx7Ue+qFkiRmCVKdyQZlT0GiWWm5hO3LboJ4SZ7IHU Hoi05wQGdfYyky6KL50YfNUwxoZkTjRtke5gTaCjt+8J2W7mSNGrHE+SMzdzJ00WtEyi RRnTzMXLGRNukDlrefPhLtxUXNGF3DRNlG4ssaxq7AfQHCMBwFhzQTdlo37GJga8AOD9 DfYg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVOhKq07VqWx9ropYcVzqCaVKvG8CEV8vvF9nL2kEFMftrefzFn sPphEtna6smCy+g/T/HBmOA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxq/NgMnRJfLHI4lN+ULq5rFSKoYEXy9hMfOSFvtdSiBX0IHvOK4qPEQ8MZnjZT4YEJz5BAwQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:bc4b:: with SMTP id t11mr8104489plz.255.1557520440711; Fri, 10 May 2019 13:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.72.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f6sm6140409pgq.11.2019.05.10.13.33.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 May 2019 13:33:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Touch , Ted Lemon Cc: Magnus Westerlund , tsvwg IETF list , ECN-Sane , The IESG , IETF Discussion Mailing List References: <4C8193B9-586C-4ED9-B01E-6BA37071600A@fugue.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <828cc927-0407-1398-1c21-cfb5100b8628@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 08:33:54 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 11 May 2019 08:02:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [tsvwg] travel funds for ietf for the next SCE talk? X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 20:34:01 -0000 On 11-May-19 02:12, Joe Touch wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On May 10, 2019, at 7:00 AM, Ted Lemon > wrote: >> >> On May 10, 2019, at 9:47 AM, Joe Touch > wrote: >>> The only =C2=A0people who get a fully free ride that I know of are th= e IEEE Comsoc Board.=C2=A0 >> >> Hm. =C2=A0I=E2=80=99ve never paid to attend IETF. =C2=A0Granted, this = is not because IETF comped me, but because I was fortunate enough to have= an employer who could afford to send me at no cost to me. >> >> This model unfortunately doesn=E2=80=99t work for open source develope= rs who are not on the payroll of a company with deep pockets. >=20 > Nor academics. I stopped coming because I couldn=E2=80=99t find a gov=E2= =80=99t agency interested in supporting my participation either (and my c= urrent employer doesn=E2=80=99t either). >=20 > This is a problem not only for general attendance but also for the IESG= - which impacts some decisions being made as well. Of course. But none of this is new and the world is a hard place. I misse= d one of the vital meetings of the IPng Directorate in 1994, the meeting = that was the last chance for a major change of direction for what would b= ecome IPv6, because my then employer (CERN) had limited travel funds. I'v= e always regretted missing that meeting. Too bad for me. On 11-May-19 06:19, Keith Moore wrote: > On 5/10/19 11:53 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 >> On May 10, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Tom Herbert > wrote: >>> Maybe there should be a "non-sponsored" registration tier with a disc= ount to help make it affordable for the little guys. >> >> The problem is figuring out a sustainability model for IETF that doesn= =E2=80=99t rely on attendance fees and hotel stays. >=20 >=20 > And this has been a problem since the early 1990s when the US governmen= t stopped subsidizing the meetings (and perhaps also the secretariat?). = But I wish we'd try harder to find that sustainability model rather than= constantly punting the problem, because the Internet has been suffering = for all that time from a lack of diverse participation in IETF. I don't see how the IETF is supposed to fix the fact that independent ope= n source developers are, um, independent. There is no money tree. And if = you change the model such that funded attendees are subsidising unfunded = attendees in significant numbers, guess what? The number of funded attend= ees will rapidly decline. It seems to me that the current focus on improv= ing remote attendance facilities is really the best we can do, but again:= if remote attendance really becomes as good as on-site attendance, the n= umber of funded atttendees will rapidly decline. I think that if there was a viable answer to this problem, we'd already h= ave found it. Brian