From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D03663BA8E; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 16:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id z25so11568570qti.13; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 13:31:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EE5syLDCr3J4yLCMe9YzL6g48p/Cc03glIeq3KfnZU8=; b=fb+xVZe6kKQRae3PbCcyGzRBv36A6kiOM+wzykjlXY5gR+XZJ42T24LGamXfvBAU6F Z0Z51kva2zPt3fhIPgWlaflH4F1+guuyMylMdIssmDz+04KKyVmykouSctf7AZr07Z6X Sc9d0uY7sXTSTiiJycRWqQTgTUJkfR5+7CG5Vjbny8PisIPmCihRAH08Xorzzkk0CKLJ Cnntzut6CvPDRJ84NUzA4KcpAaYOasvi9IuHj4iN2+fwMEDIMPwsBO2msB7biyI+xUkw MFWkis8rldeItwej9sre5+UAP9+awhSJ+MMezgKEq97HWWCQgNDu4lbun0NBKdKW0a6x EGfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EE5syLDCr3J4yLCMe9YzL6g48p/Cc03glIeq3KfnZU8=; b=L3Of3TOukUfdQwSVWPD6RwZyfgd26KHHBAr7rgcIVu2jErqsaQjKZbiFh92xEuJ+uI xMBpwbXhM6L6A2YwHdYjaMHRVeG/82gHVbQtTy3ljRpiBwC+PRW2YcO/s66YNAYtUHOM 6MUXLQDD9ZMW+fOicbN41y5lHYuGlNBCCfEewnNxBIFFWYf9OXTipg+9GjfYUT9DAfZg EXdQdSuZoqiJUt2vJomxImZD/7/BQZJcogeQVhbxc5QvxwqRM1yeV4T1NIAjWT6gqSBn 6daJ6wT+xdtQE9zLip63SjyfS1FxHx0x7Y7oC8kvbIlIfXdR9l1BcTdBYeWliHWYD2ps UkQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWtF5TNtG4CRHtA7iMIDE4rtr4NJwGhUZ9bLWJQ1phm/IpDmAxr g5lBoO5yzsts/ciK1b/FWNWq8psdhLWiBUx8pVY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwZN5E81lfjDtGKf1J6S57uQlUXvH+3k7GxQWQK5KzaKYy2rUHc0U1DP5BRUvwsxHkOjg/yX2qljoBltXLOGTY= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:e5c8:: with SMTP id u8mr2845122qvm.158.1552681874358; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 13:31:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1E80578D-A589-4CA0-9015-B03B63042355@gmx.de> <27FA673A-2C4C-4652-943F-33FAA1CF1E83@gmx.de> <1552669283.555112988@apps.rackspace.com> <7412ADED-D1F3-4C15-9703-0977E087013B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 13:31:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Foulkes Cc: Jonathan Morton , ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net, bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [Bloat] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104 X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 20:31:14 -0000 On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 1:28 PM Jonathan Foulkes w= rote: > > All this discussion of DSCP marking brings to mind what happened on the W= indows platform, where the OS had to suppress ALL DSCP marks, as app author= s were trying to game the system. > And even if not trying to =E2=80=98game=E2=80=99 it, they have non-obviou= s reasons why they don=E2=80=99t mark traffic how one would expect. Example= : > > I know an engineer who works at a cloud-storage solution company, and I a= sked why a long-standing customer request for DSCP marking (as bulk) was no= t implemented. His answer was they=E2=80=99d never do that, as that would i= mpact benchmarks against their competitors for which service syncs faster. = > > Which brings me to a question: Is anyone aware of an easy to use Windows = app that will allow the user to select an application and tell the OS to ma= rk the traffic (all or by port) with a user selected DSCP level? > There are many guides on using regedit and other error-prone (and geek-on= ly) means of doing this, but is there a simple Windows 10 home app? When I last tried it (years ago), in order to set the tos bits, an application merely had to have admin privs. > Now that Cake is out there with simple DiffServ3 support, it would be nic= e to lower the priority of cloud-storage services and other bulk traffic by= correctly marking it at the origin. > > Cheers, > > Jonathan Foulkes > > > > On Mar 15, 2019, at 3:32 PM, Jonathan Morton wr= ote: > > > >> On 15 Mar, 2019, at 8:36 pm, Mikael Abrahamsson wro= te: > >> > >> Having a "lower-than-best-effort" diffserve codepoint might work, beca= use it means worse treatment, not preferential treatment. > >> > >> The problem with having DSCP CPs that indicate preferential treatment = is typically a ddos magnet. > > > > This is true, and also why I feel that just 2 bits should be sufficient= for Diffserv (rather than 6). They are sufficient to express four differe= nt optimisation targets: > > > > 0: Maximum Throughput (aka Best Effort) > > 1: Minimum Cost (aka Least Effort) > > 2: Minimum Latency (aka Maximum Responsiveness) > > 3: Minimum Loss (aka Maximum Reliability) > > > > It is legitimate for traffic to request any of these four optimisations= , with the explicit tradeoff of *not* necessarily getting optimisation in t= he other three dimensions. > > > > The old TOS spec erred in specifying 4 non-exclusive bits to express th= is, in addition to 3 bits for a telegram-office style "priority level" (whi= ch was very much ripe for abuse if not strictly admission-controlled). TOS= was rightly considered a mess, but was replaced with Diffserv which was fa= r too loose a spec to be useful in practice. > > > > But that's a separate topic from ECN per se. > > > > - Jonathan Morton > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bloat mailing list > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740