From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D774C3B29E for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2019 07:53:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id c189so1400652qke.6 for ; Thu, 04 Apr 2019 04:53:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MWi4kABLAoGA97QyLPYpSSSS+5MNty8pYx3p8n+eFXg=; b=tRNBt65cQS9GFqAGWPmUqHGhq0L7+V4XiuhrmveQP/8ID8KGa5BMIzHuV8ADFq9G2i ouL6F7vQyZCv7d+yH+itiMKKvRuxr3FMzUuyewmR7mB0/RiaivJtsGQKYbqk5MNpWYrS E+AmKNonGjw3h4D6fA68CHwVbg/P1tpoR4Uywfz76ng0ocSPP8LGU+u3Uxjkkx8/S9Px 35hQFrMItWfXFSiMW+V/rz1p7o+OeHpTVVoMRfwpVUH5EtAKqjJj27kELs/n3rZQv/Gu pkRedyGNzY6o9rsbEM+vkVbkFu20vHqMisDw+Z8joyzd8vpxfVs1yrVj5S94fuCES+O7 uPuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MWi4kABLAoGA97QyLPYpSSSS+5MNty8pYx3p8n+eFXg=; b=hQxOTeesKRCmgmtAPFIWYdIGHlwa7aHw8oKp9Wi6+jMWRsRfIGd7rNu8q0zfwr73jg l5ZIXAHaQTbrpC43cqJRVVAx9ihc6Q3obIDbIMmJeokeap5Gff+0SY5Zdxev/vgsrbvr aRiBX5MHl8wRhIVBGO0Nzj3EXoct/AMJSMuiPuBcAVK4kNS8BS5wh7EDKOxpSDEt7D7K LgQNpfcRSN4P3mFR93SYV0zuj/DxVpPbNCoHb/5RML9BPW2svmGbfI32UIzkRKtnFPJ/ 4Ml4ntWkNnC5agJhzjjHGdnzCTcz3OPxcgUyHa/nD4BHytCS9h8w6MbBogIbKd8JmG6v NxVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVcHfAPNgZc2B68kQqdK6tVzU15b5XxBg+kfgnpcd5WlgdBQnHw JfQuQJ3G8EinDAZLOfcTo2eHmMF0nUF4c4rhIM0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzHfxQ1vqf6gkRuNfNPdD/8GWSJuaeBcmPW3Y0Hf86IPvG3iLGI5umKW+g2bptsK28kWIfxtuPv5NVMxbc5K7E= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a5d8:: with SMTP id o207mr4753507qke.0.1554378815382; Thu, 04 Apr 2019 04:53:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <623CA1C6-3425-46E6-AFD9-6FD7D0DBE422@gmx.de> <82B40A22-F2C2-4D56-868A-F53D7AEA37D7@gmail.com> <4507BFFD-A68A-4E8A-8FFB-347F95E3F2E8@cablelabs.com> <2491A216-4522-4942-BDEB-301D61CC5D03@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 13:52:54 +0200 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Morton Cc: Greg White , "iccrg@irtf.org" , Sebastian Moeller , Bob Briscoe , tsvwg IETF list , ECN-Sane Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] [tsvwg] IETF104 ICCRG TCP Prague presentation X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2019 11:53:36 -0000 Several things... I find discussions of ECN in general very stressful, as I am firmly on the ecn-sane "yellow" team. ECN scares me on the general internet. More than anything else, I'd like to get a big DDOS protection provider and university to tackle all my outstanding issues with using ECN in a general deployment - ranging from what happens with tcp syn ecn enabled attacks, to ddos protection from udp based packet floods, as I outlined in the ecn-sane project's charter: https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/ecn-sane/wiki/ before I can endorse this work. I have friends that regularly deal with 2TByte/sec DDOS attacks and they have worse blood pressure problems than I do. I've long had no problem with ecn in specialized deployments, under rigidly controlled conditions. The SCE work, in particular, looks to be useful for technologies like nvme over tcp and roce and stuff like that, and I look forward to results there. One of the proudest things I have ever had going in my life is that the backhauls and groundstations for the arkyd-6 spacecraft, used fq_codel with ECN enabled... running lede (openwrt). And though I can't talk about that project much, and probably shouldn't have mentioned even that much here - I tend to feel that any non-backward compatible change to ecn will muck with *my* bird in a 25 year orbit, and I kind of take it a bit personally any naive interference with that contribution to the US space program. I am unsubscribing from the ietf lists as of now, so I can focus on getting testbeds and analytical tools up, as well as finishing up my work on the ipv4 unicast extensions project, which is entirely separate, that I wish I could get more folk to pay attention to. If there is a productive conversation of interest to me, here, using debating techniques I can live with ( https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/ecn-sane/wiki/rules/ ) please either send a link or cc ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net. Thank you. Dave