From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 789E13CB35; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 00:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id n21so1057957ioo.10; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 21:23:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SPArCjHFqyb3S27sSm5KtDWiz9uqB6HGDE0o0cImHkg=; b=edNgO1A6gvL/He1ZEDblGFKxFpo/KJNKycgWVpgC0YHXar2SpTLYOMJ4jkFSp1iOu8 dZgD5nOglW8+PXmzxGITDLLm3C5kXro5pAHkgN/4jzhTA4tGXKrhcSg/xEn7V4bveCFD EjVXW+a57hV3UKCf5w7JUVdvCN/0MFyS2OZBGar/0dXsOGAXRpY711c8xPoDNgRkrNoy u2gb5R38gAwesuXNFxVJRFV3Jk0OBZGhlN38mjY5GaqsWrQBd8B3iWxv2voJ0K7GueIM ++cRVzkX5d7B3GKMDahLatYdFCHjJ129CwDZjaDMw9ZmhflcYgw0/i1KWdf7LS6cicWU OHGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SPArCjHFqyb3S27sSm5KtDWiz9uqB6HGDE0o0cImHkg=; b=aPWBHW1UvQTxfw6TekSOgh+WDELtnvx97HF2qNCVCAnGbLPNpo4ubxz8BUAwNIZhd+ aree2M3augVBuiWa4hxg/DHK5g+Q+FdoFvkU+aLALy1JjzvqE9zmQCqXwNm2h6Jah+i4 u0slHF9iqIkX1vx2lXRkwz8/Op7fu9I6NZ77pnWK7b3wBnMCavF1Zo1crknB5GQGIwM5 lUOsupMMu45s4c1sBvG+oupOFEvGbXYzCJeaDt3On7BsplUCXpuxuK46lHZSHzlPqqpV rx0M3x3Sm/o5PDh91Ppv5XKL/kDXrXbOPTeY7tWh6PKzwjRm1773jfJjhpDzFA2m2bk7 gYfA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX19j2qlCQNuv3SJ8fQv9LKZboSrkxzCS8B9j2S72Fva08WobxI dkilgGQr5Okl4b23E5fFWQNiU6LruyLi2sy59ats3K2S X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzxKbrLvDnHvIKRU+MdmzkZRWM0rKrzlIkoQgbpyqhIzA1mR6U0PV7sofWmAEivAxb0jEn55qwTioxt7BB7tOc= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:8b03:: with SMTP id g3mr28305951iok.279.1582262624911; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 21:23:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1553613152.830913564@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1553613152.830913564@apps.rackspace.com> From: Loganaden Velvindron Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 09:23:33 +0400 Message-ID: To: "David P. Reed" Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] can we setup a X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 05:23:45 -0000 On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 7:12 PM David P. Reed wrote: > > This, and the general question of how to get any change like this into th= e IP forwarding components of existing networks, seems to be a very importa= nt and tough question. > > IETF seems to be unable to mandate anything, even when there is rough con= sensus and working code. > > The power has shifted to customers of equipment vendors. > > > The business innovation for those customers is now called 5G. That's not = the 3GPP standard called 5G, but a vague buzzword marketing race that prett= y much wants to make the Internet slowly die. > > Fronts of that are: > > 1. IoT. Cloud-server-based. Uses IP but doesn't care about it. A new "ove= rlay internet" that doesn't get built by IETF at all. > > 2. Small cells instead of hotspots. Key is that small cells are owned by = a telecom operator, and though on or near private premises, the premise own= ers has no authority over what traffic they transport. Business model inclu= des your access provider owning the wireless airtime in your home or busine= ss. No more Private Branch Exchange style deals. Instead you lease a cell o= r mesh of cells from the cable or phone company you select as your 5G provi= der. > > 3. PWAs replace websites. Eventually, 5G operators own these "enclaves" o= n your phone, Chromebook, Mac, ...that are controlled by the PWA vendor. Th= e vendors, like PC ISVs used to, are closed and proprietary distributed app= makers. The data of users is held in the enclaves and the "backends". Thou= gh W3C protocols are used, including WebRTC, the way they are used by these= businesses involves harvesting data about people and their behavior, kept = secret in cloud vaults to which each PWA has secure access. These vaults fo= rm a privatized economy of information used to predict and control user beh= avior through the PWAs that are hosted on user devices. > > Given that evolution of a new internetwork structure, how to get the plum= bing fixed? > > Simple: move the ideas to be central to 5G networking. > > At the moment, 5G is very much tangled with IP. That is rapidly changing = as we speak. > Is there a place we can follow the development of 5g ? Is this what you are referring to : https://www.etsi.org/committee?id=3D145= 4 ? In Mauritius, there are talks about deploying 5G for the whole island. > Also note that cablecos and cellularcos are converging to this definition= of 5G. Some tech is different: 802.11 is shifting to be part of cableco' o= ffering, while short range high speed 5G NR and mmWave are the new cellular= hotspots. But both are WLANs, and 802.11x is no longer peer to peer. But t= he overall business goals are identical. There is a competitive war. > > Most of IETF wirk is irrelevant and will be time wasted. Thus vision of 5= G as replacing today's Internet is the context. Think Solaris as IETF Inter= net, 5G as RedHat. > > > ----Original Message----- > From: "Mikael Abrahamsson" > Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:20 am > To: "Holland, Jake" > Cc: "Holland, Jake" , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t" , "bloat" > Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] can we setup a "how to get this into existingnetw= orks" get-together in Prague coming week? > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Holland, Jake wrote: > > > Hi Mikael, > > > > Any operator nibbles on making this meeting happen? > > Nobody else expressed any interest in this, so I kind of dropped the idea= . > > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > _______________________________________________ > Ecn-sane mailing list > Ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane > > > _______________________________________________ > Ecn-sane mailing list > Ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane