From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA85E3B29E; Mon, 11 Mar 2019 03:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.16.12.10] ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M5tU1-1gsipk3VlJ-00xqj8; Mon, 11 Mar 2019 08:44:17 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 08:43:48 +0100 Cc: Jonathan Morton , Cake List , "codel@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "Holland, Jake" , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <550C0248-1704-49DA-ABDC-49A91E0AC6F3@akamai.com> <1EE25778-8571-4506-A334-38C544470ACE@gmail.com> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BXS54F13XY51ngLtvk4YS+X+STkXh5MgZxpVQHkXBdMtcR8YZP/ NXB0mbEBoozw3PaBFYRWaMp4a8Mmj48ytmQOjKIddR0RSXspZUMzOc9SIAxX2ld5t6dQJ6b 1tza9ZfL8013a+7rHWPbp+SeKKNH4Y5o23jJjvh6yzjfh+Z5bhgw+z8GhS1dAM9NehgfZVd /fQBNf/y1ygEnuOOI1UJw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:z0S7kzHZqVc=:bgwOeQcbIT+dSNu9PzjfHK 9AJs+K3bB23HFXdSn9z0Lqwcc42HHDumomKK03e/ZyjMgtPCGcy9eIW/3w4ta3kWSGUF6U8k9 GXbJRBieK4QxRsDP00htW7dh2v4+ia4UCaEKjvjwH94yQAQPLE3wsUsxxKMowOHO6FsiUo5/g U+7P5VnYaPGD0DM6yKojvkS2QJicZPb6YbgL0V/UAZCo88iC0MLESLkxoiABNDhQ4uTDy5XcM g/kGDv8bxd3srkbmDez+7qZuzlbtgyfy6mXHtTEJ+rNjGAx37swwQkejMKm1bXCzGybxN5LLa VDEAsLiJ8mJMythOBjgk8sHcgytzP7oCOIuuCfLjIU5gb0dw03IUbugqdkqra4yqYqLMz2H3e udLSuNEqY/+TgrM6/MPDtQKXdlGQKkyFjvXuihfXK9GnJHq8OehE7f4soLQiVbQwyJc1Uloiz IzWbzl+PQ3xt7uT/MY1xpnjtb2HRtMPnFrqhKiQcj1aZUDJyu5PW+HHEoRLmmt3t8xGCpIrke vuIbNrBrMwyS3nNVrdqI4edfSnUkThizJhch2xV4MRml5ok2uNurI7SI8jbMsjpyMvgMN7rq9 npiUdofItPP1yBvM15tPGT2A8UysKLNuf61hsQoBl+l7WyzVW8bdbhIDR9YKhXiTwyp5lurFM ZFhN+dj1C0Lg9o6JJ6kLHNbEi761ZyE6zGFhATlYliskmdjG2MuXCimPOuwjwCAAdji4cf+W1 4jcBcoNuPKZxftUjaXnM15b/aVqmprY4jHlxuhGuEkJYHsb0HobTj3Jmi/jdcJWRNs3ToT6nF IDj07tggYNdkxuNmNYDff/OnbBEWQaRoJJJqwiNNkX9PYFn2fcRXse2gWzB2u/8WwsDRxdw6M FSRZleaLdWmRTkpTs0geXBoYxfpYsUqqGGAi9UsyimawDRnCff1n1ubII2EyAPJ8DpkbBv6lg 3jY49DTEOKw== Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [Cake] [Bloat] The "Some Congestion Experienced" ECN codepoint - a new internet draft - X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 07:44:24 -0000 Hi Mikael, > On Mar 11, 2019, at 08:08, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: >=20 > On Sun, 10 Mar 2019, Jonathan Morton wrote: >=20 >> An interesting idea, but SCE marks will appear even when there's a = lot of congestion (at high rates, ie. probably every packet that doesn't = carry CE), as well as showing up at low frequency when the level of = congestion only warrants reducing the growth rate. I think the word = "Some" is sufficiently descriptive, while "Slight" might cause people to = ignore it completely. >=20 > One way to handle this would be "buffering experienced" or something = like that. Ie if this packet is being enqueued into a buffer with = non-trivial number of packets in it, mark it. >=20 > The L4S proposal also has the property that their use of this last = code point combination in the entire packet header (and this is a big = thing, this is the last unicorn) also meant the packet was allowed to be = re-ordered. How is packet reordering for anybody but the folks responsible = for operating the "conduits" in any way attractive?=20 > I thought this was a big and nice thing, for other areas. This new = proposal removes that property. >=20 > =46rom what I can see, L4S actually is quite novel and has the chance = to seriously change the way queueing is done. This proposal seems more = like "a little more of what we had before" which I do not think warrants = claiming this last unicorn codepoint. I would argue that evolutionary changes tend to look mostly like = "more of the old, just a little different" sothis might be considered a = plus for this proposal ;) Best Regards Sebastian > I'd like its use to be truly novel and be more than a tweak. >=20 > --=20 > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > _______________________________________________ > Cake mailing list > Cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake