From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-out01.uio.no (mail-out01.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4403C3BA8E; Sat, 16 Mar 2019 05:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-mx10.uio.no ([129.240.10.27]) by mail-out01.uio.no with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1h55pw-0003h1-DD; Sat, 16 Mar 2019 10:42:40 +0100 Received: from 58.116.34.95.customer.cdi.no ([95.34.116.58] helo=[10.0.0.9]) by mail-mx10.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) user michawe (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1h55pv-000Cf4-6T; Sat, 16 Mar 2019 10:42:40 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0AC86FCB-A174-4E7D-9123-AB2E7F2FD41C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Michael Welzl X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <1552693506.047323810@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 10:42:38 +0100 Cc: Dave Taht , bloat , ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net Message-Id: References: <1E80578D-A589-4CA0-9015-B03B63042355@gmx.de> <27FA673A-2C4C-4652-943F-33FAA1CF1E83@gmx.de> <1552669283.555112988@apps.rackspace.com> <7412ADED-D1F3-4C15-9703-0977E087013B@gmail.com> <1552693506.047323810@apps.rackspace.com> To: "David P. Reed" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-UiO-SPF-Received: Received-SPF: neutral (mail-mx10.uio.no: 95.34.116.58 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of ifi.uio.no) client-ip=95.34.116.58; envelope-from=michawe@ifi.uio.no; helo=[10.0.0.9]; X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=0.001, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: 49245E0847A032DBD6218D5E181606380C44E4A3 Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [Bloat] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104 X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 09:42:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0AC86FCB-A174-4E7D-9123-AB2E7F2FD41C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Good question! =E2=80=A6. on Windows in particular, I=E2=80=99d really = like to know this too. The WebRTC Javascript API allows one to influence the DSCP, i.e. = browsers normally can do that. Whether that=E2=80=99s true for all OSes, = I don=E2=80=99t know. Cheers, Michael > On Mar 16, 2019, at 12:45 AM, David P. Reed = wrote: >=20 > How many applications used by normal users have "admin" privileges? = The Browser? Email? FTP? > =20 > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: "Dave Taht" > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:31pm > To: "Jonathan Foulkes" > Cc: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat" = > Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [Bloat] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] = Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104 >=20 > On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 1:28 PM Jonathan Foulkes = wrote: > > > > All this discussion of DSCP marking brings to mind what happened on = the Windows platform, where the OS had to suppress ALL DSCP marks, as = app authors were trying to game the system. > > And even if not trying to =E2=80=98game=E2=80=99 it, they have = non-obvious reasons why they don=E2=80=99t mark traffic how one would = expect. Example: > > > > I know an engineer who works at a cloud-storage solution company, = and I asked why a long-standing customer request for DSCP marking (as = bulk) was not implemented. His answer was they=E2=80=99d never do that, = as that would impact benchmarks against their competitors for which = service syncs faster. > > > > Which brings me to a question: Is anyone aware of an easy to use = Windows app that will allow the user to select an application and tell = the OS to mark the traffic (all or by port) with a user selected DSCP = level? > > There are many guides on using regedit and other error-prone (and = geek-only) means of doing this, but is there a simple Windows 10 home = app? >=20 > When I last tried it (years ago), in order to set the tos bits, an > application merely had to have admin privs. >=20 > > Now that Cake is out there with simple DiffServ3 support, it would = be nice to lower the priority of cloud-storage services and other bulk = traffic by correctly marking it at the origin. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jonathan Foulkes > > > > > > > On Mar 15, 2019, at 3:32 PM, Jonathan Morton = wrote: > > > > > >> On 15 Mar, 2019, at 8:36 pm, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: > > >> > > >> Having a "lower-than-best-effort" diffserve codepoint might work, = because it means worse treatment, not preferential treatment. > > >> > > >> The problem with having DSCP CPs that indicate preferential = treatment is typically a ddos magnet. > > > > > > This is true, and also why I feel that just 2 bits should be = sufficient for Diffserv (rather than 6). They are sufficient to express = four different optimisation targets: > > > > > > 0: Maximum Throughput (aka Best Effort) > > > 1: Minimum Cost (aka Least Effort) > > > 2: Minimum Latency (aka Maximum Responsiveness) > > > 3: Minimum Loss (aka Maximum Reliability) > > > > > > It is legitimate for traffic to request any of these four = optimisations, with the explicit tradeoff of *not* necessarily getting = optimisation in the other three dimensions. > > > > > > The old TOS spec erred in specifying 4 non-exclusive bits to = express this, in addition to 3 bits for a telegram-office style = "priority level" (which was very much ripe for abuse if not strictly = admission-controlled). TOS was rightly considered a mess, but was = replaced with Diffserv which was far too loose a spec to be useful in = practice. > > > > > > But that's a separate topic from ECN per se. > > > > > > - Jonathan Morton > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Bloat mailing list > > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bloat mailing list > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Dave T=C3=A4ht > CTO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-831-205-9740 > _______________________________________________ > Ecn-sane mailing list > Ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --Apple-Mail=_0AC86FCB-A174-4E7D-9123-AB2E7F2FD41C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Good = question!  =E2=80=A6. on Windows in particular, I=E2=80=99d really = like to know this too.

The WebRTC Javascript API allows one to influence the DSCP, = i.e. browsers normally can do that. Whether that=E2=80=99s true for all = OSes, I don=E2=80=99t know.

Cheers,
Michael



On Mar = 16, 2019, at 12:45 AM, David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com>= wrote:

How many applications used by normal users have = "admin" privileges? The Browser? Email? FTP?

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: = "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March = 15, 2019 4:31pm
To: "Jonathan Foulkes" <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com>
Cc: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat" <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: = Re: [Ecn-sane] [Bloat] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and = experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 1:28 PM Jonathan Foulkes = <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com> wrote:
>
> All this discussion of DSCP marking brings to mind what = happened on the Windows platform, where the OS had to suppress ALL DSCP = marks, as app authors were trying to game the system.
> = And even if not trying to =E2=80=98game=E2=80=99 it, they have = non-obvious reasons why they don=E2=80=99t mark traffic how one would = expect. Example:
>
> I know an = engineer who works at a cloud-storage solution company, and I asked why = a long-standing customer request for DSCP marking (as bulk) was not = implemented. His answer was they=E2=80=99d never do that, as that would = impact benchmarks against their competitors for which service syncs = faster. <sigh>
>
> Which brings = me to a question: Is anyone aware of an easy to use Windows app that = will allow the user to select an application and tell the OS to mark the = traffic (all or by port) with a user selected DSCP level?
> There are many guides on using regedit and other = error-prone (and geek-only) means of doing this, but is there a simple = Windows 10 home app?

When I last tried it = (years ago), in order to set the tos bits, an
application = merely had to have admin privs.

> Now = that Cake is out there with simple DiffServ3 support, it would be nice = to lower the priority of cloud-storage services and other bulk traffic = by correctly marking it at the origin.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jonathan = Foulkes
>
>
> > On = Mar 15, 2019, at 3:32 PM, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:
> = >
> >> On 15 Mar, 2019, at 8:36 pm, Mikael = Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> = >>
> >> Having a "lower-than-best-effort" = diffserve codepoint might work, because it means worse treatment, not = preferential treatment.
> >>
> = >> The problem with having DSCP CPs that indicate preferential = treatment is typically a ddos magnet.
> >
> > This is true, and also why I feel that just 2 bits = should be sufficient for Diffserv (rather than 6). They are sufficient = to express four different optimisation targets:
> = >
> > 0: Maximum Throughput (aka Best Effort)
> > 1: Minimum Cost (aka Least Effort)
>= > 2: Minimum Latency (aka Maximum Responsiveness)
> = > 3: Minimum Loss (aka Maximum Reliability)
> = >
> > It is legitimate for traffic to request any = of these four optimisations, with the explicit tradeoff of *not* = necessarily getting optimisation in the other three dimensions.
> >
> > The old TOS spec erred in = specifying 4 non-exclusive bits to express this, in addition to 3 bits = for a telegram-office style "priority level" (which was very much ripe = for abuse if not strictly admission-controlled). TOS was rightly = considered a mess, but was replaced with Diffserv which was far too = loose a spec to be useful in practice.
> >
> > But that's a separate topic from ECN per se.
> >
> > - Jonathan Morton
> >
> > = _______________________________________________
> > = Bloat mailing list
> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
> = _______________________________________________
> Bloat = mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



--

Dave T=C3=A4ht
CTO, TekLibre, = LLC
http://www.teklibre.com
Tel: = 1-831-205-9740
_______________________________________________
Ecn-sane mailing list
Ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

= --Apple-Mail=_0AC86FCB-A174-4E7D-9123-AB2E7F2FD41C--