From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7CE33B2A4 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 11:08:02 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1588172839; bh=vNibhvJZErytDbEHpVBFPp41SVnw+UPq5f0gDR6HXYY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=DBwAYXx6AhCDgsgyTeG8LwTXvDF+kri9K/sdMOjCbBCt9JXPxqcMgM/macdamVUFE 7QHP+ADQroAU8qkXAS/iLcYdvGfSg/xt+PebsKjlkCMeemlKp4TF7LkkGJPS286ROr kB01ToLO5KKhl9MQo/AKFGPMD4fdo7671khs10Zs= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [10.11.12.16] ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MQe5u-1jrW7t2pAk-00NiKm; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:07:19 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <537a840b-4c71-4ad2-8421-32c248eb69fa@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:07:18 +0200 Cc: Jonathan Morton , ECN-Sane , tsvwg IETF list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6d925e3b-2781-0fb1-6936-7a6c006b9a21@bobbriscoe.net> <00A6CD68-E37B-4505-BB96-476509937AFC@gmail.com> <537a840b-4c71-4ad2-8421-32c248eb69fa@bobbriscoe.net> To: Bob Briscoe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:rJnLC7zD211QgyvC0KzUyAcl2+PhC2uuOaiKVkkKOn3AfDTk2W6 y5/Gqg9Mj79PxKNWzH/ks1KpB5dg31MBQJFbDmgLfj8Edi2WAOPCR2OcpOnCyeZ9M9zcKxm KLZ0pQf6K7Q+KcB+fkX5lc30vzM1nVHM/9aLdL+AWoguV1vg3PVbC2T98aDZXKj2rF/p1vQ AhUeh2zTBHSVQUODQu9cw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:RMnLXznDQjQ=:5zt0MnMYabnpD/WT6+dn6s qj4bXTlvPEXhORwY+t/RbT9Oz6flAx0Wh3bS9j5aRxPyewow4XCjW59wh1aUasCr6VcvFGsAC p1pBBevgyu4k5Quus/5h3aNpNMJlUNHTkRIiKeEEaI6k+gEbZGeOvJGGcbQfE+4GlqfvPYBNP SPCvPBU+J411df+P+y7vIEoYyc/Z21RCa3ibu36xzpCeL7JY9ktG4lyergdkOq9Vl5W19z7ab QgGQ3n0kXSkNYef37y8FGhb5SzmSm8uyN9XRnZtvHdwUx/BBAVCT+Aywa2DyNqdDKTynVWegV RWhUT2a8ESC4xK04ZYT4fRGuCgDYEVI8sRnu56yBzrLThhB1T81cVMmLovBsRk0t5GBPZOPBA BTtV7kl+lCp5fEY/XCXxCSO6bibNnIsu/rWx5tFvNJRjkwsqwbErfiR/MaUhRmP8q7tHi/Kle g3xXPMOT6p95JNhuIu4zzpTdJhD4izZkGTaueUg/TiBZd6vQMO/k2LH9zHJCvWL32G7uN+f2g Lio5odlejAYxXiyzKCKLTYlLXgFQwRMnlZ6DTlUcHQt9kjzfGTq/5yJNuCaPME/h/rPxFl53O xo78p/7IsQMMYMiRAh8gAVtTZXS33Qlji3phKUMZAMIAfkgv5+aTXpZO9ohL50Unhn5fwpceW RDpldd+CAL48yQXTJM3wSXAkbr1lokt3ccQhv5XtmCnWRow3SvgqBc6m5S2MEjVE0gNKjFAZt NVHlwPOc7B3Gopt83O58/QQ2OetY6XYdeq4vW+YjQL8dDUdW2vZgkZgGNlZzRmIiQXXxOVVpa 6Wi59YnkVkYWbNsv0MMZNbUXrI6Sfg4/p9shb/HTir4UCCJCRr18w33OC+YHXouSxrozjXgtZ 2kx5GV6oVLOxFkmB0/bqPe3TCWV+h4rcVmzLxqTz4G8ABqlhC4kx6HDnbmgX85YbovQ0CjmYk GJ2LqHSN/JzuUJmHP12B/nyLLCidzBhZMeYkhwW8wF6QY0XTFHXWmTgld0nN+dKIQrmVgYbvW 9EWbpEwx2GnimQZ1UjOkt0C0P3dGlrQatxk8eEWSz1WiG2+Iwqc8KXwpxADjD9iM2dFqrxs2x vieB1e+mnu/Y7yk/pzexQOoEnL6yFGOYGW0alK5zX6/ZTWmOxSmBGn5bWTG6jYTDc/peljpYu xn7bm5WTL9wUkTYLybv9O+m60SY5MDYFKUuCXuVAZQo22QRnWsWwwWPHIRwE6MwRhXpMC46LB IYb6iTkC1zKYBMPLR Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [tsvwg] Fwd: my backlogged comments on the ECT(1) interim call X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:08:03 -0000 Hi Bob, > On Apr 29, 2020, at 15:37, Bob Briscoe wrote: >=20 > [...] > 3. I should add that I know you personally have tried to address the = asymmetric capacity problem with the ACK thinning in CAKE. ACK thinning in cake happened because Ryan Mounce on a rather unsavory = asymmetric DOCSIS link (120/2.5 or 48:1) wanted to free some upstream = capacity for data (with cake in the path his DOCSIS-Modem stopped ACK = filtering, since it never saw the queue necessary to collect the ACKs to = "merge"). Also ACK compression was eating into the downstream rates as = well (turns out ACK "clocking" is a rather optimistic concept to rely on = once bandwidth get tight and jitter gets high).=20 The root cause here was the arguably misconfigured asymmetry of his link = by his ISP, and that can unfortunately not be addressed by cake's = ACK-filter, just worked-around.=20 That said, in your case with the first mover being CableLabs/DOCSIS, I = would have assumed that you (or cablelabs) would simply have = grandfathered in the ACK filter into the design of the upstream shaper = instance. Did you not? Best Regards Sebastian=