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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:LEXPR01MB0319; H:LEXPR01MB0463.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: telekom.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: rnyne1jNHcjuS+KhP3NDNilwF8fH3n+Q0EieM7Hefz79C4j9v8SPHfmKXKB+COGgA8W/x7RVg12cOl0+EK/Ss9PBulgXqSj3bJiQSqLyekB5AVVxOZ/iIkv3X5UPw81HkRQT0NOYIjgF76rtuzNcYSNhdD+IQo/xuLy0NzxUaK+9dqbHM3ySym+xM0EJY0lop9RqdO1d4gEeimhJHFqW4sgEH9huDugZzxkdDBbT4I6KjhrTpIzsCS1qn4JdpFel5ccK/owAFJU0Dvi8y6knJy7Ckf/ObBQWU+EwHMbgqzP1hFH1eTLnDdhv8Dmsfd8Gnvh881E67V/D3D+B/Zxa3MnLWSukPUiREN5T2rCMo/61uTYwtoOQr/hJ+YfmUKvWi8K4YeDOA1A3qMO90HY4OZTOe0xwJepUYQBNkIZREEw= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3e93e490-8e66-4325-b4bd-08d71a7b416d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Aug 2019 14:34:57.6473 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bde4dffc-4b60-4cf6-8b04-a5eeb25f5c4f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LEXPR01MB0319 X-OriginatorOrg: telekom.de Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [tsvwg] ECN CE that was ECT(0) incorrectly classified as L4S X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2019 14:35:01 -0000 I'd like to sort Mikael's list a little.... -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: Mikael Abrahamsson =20 Of course congestion occurs. But the probability of it matters (the less li= kely it is, the less likely are efforts to work around it)=20 Congestion is not probable in a well dimensioned backbone and at paid peeri= ngs. I think the effort put into congestion avoidance by engineering is hig= h at these locations and whether protocol design to deal with congestion th= ere (and make a gain as compared to todays transport performance under cong= estion there) is worth a larger effort. Bulk transport optimisation makes s= ense there, that includes suitable AQM. Public peerings and not well dimensioned networks may suffer from regular c= ongestion. I'm not sure to which extent technical standards can significant= ly improve service quality in that situation. IP transport must work as goo= d as possible also in such a situation, of course.=20 The following are access issues: There is the uplink to the BNG or whatever. There is the user-unique shaper There is the L2 aggregation network (DOCSIS/*PON/ETTH) There is the in-h= ouse wifi network. Maybe one can add LTE and 5G, these are layer 2 standards missing above. Sh= ared L2 may result in annoying performance. To me, L3 protocol design impro= ving IP performance over one or more L2 protocols standardised by other SDO= s sounds good. I wonder to which extent that's feasible. =20 As you know, the user-unique (BNG or the like) shaper is my favourite site = where I'd appreciate improvements.=20 Home Gateways are a mass market product. I'm not familiar with ways to impa= ct the vendors of that segment (but agree that it's worth trying). Also wir= eless scheduling of IP traffic certainly is an interesting topic. I'm not s= ure whether IETF has sufficient impact to push for improved packet transpor= t performance there (again, it's worth trying).