From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com (mail-wr1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FE2E3B29D for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 18:47:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id w11so13266247wrr.10 for ; Mon, 08 Mar 2021 15:47:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heistp.net; s=google; h=message-id:subject:from:to:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=n/l+UoMm4/PK3Tgwe6AUr4tIKcVCd1AMtk1gQDQFRlk=; b=HSuJAqcvk02FX+0zNW1uJRudzF49XeTasg9ObbA3FQdSkIWwYbVEnKuky9UAcaKPyU xN9T/ZieAa0QvMbGiLR8oSKwMGdCH0mWNLo7KXX3XAeKo3R2W4F8tu3vhCKtQq7dgpEp aBwl2f4evyXusGGlyUWcQzJaHgouHxcagOAJSVizEHZwnFc03aS4u9l33qgMyLpGd2bK UoPE9x5Dw72bMcK/i2qrZBXO0u9kmZZh9gfX7UZ9SdbUk8U8H0kAvXBqfXTM7AJhJHR0 WmgeDlSNevQc6GHNQX1Qcv8YSmcdj7aAFQYFKmJp3jprJydKCTO96TzqUp5oDtySC2SF hVaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:subject:from:to:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=n/l+UoMm4/PK3Tgwe6AUr4tIKcVCd1AMtk1gQDQFRlk=; b=ASy+m+FBhQgplpngZ0Rbntnc59FA8Vm1HTqRsshkMLUznLngOCoIgezxYLNQ177biG 6CrGWQOXtjUGKIEeJeZDCCXiV1LDnpYzJpaWaOTRtYDGvmNuUzADDwjjSL57QEqicDgv e/5cv2c3gRRSaQj9WjWc0F2PNNLjXTpZJtaCtJcmPB/iJXvCo46YUMpEXhcBn8WsxwBs X2wkn8a1YW+fkTZuFCb5m4TLLz6i93mhf7uNY3nU/1La7hpkW6jqpGhapSdW4NbGiX2C Q3R736dDAyus9pO0YzmLGVKchO208KJc+raAbKg1jYi8+P4iNtKHed0mvb2TJXD+vb2z EKhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532s/5IwpdguaPla9015HGP7mCYW6ZWcfFF0tH1TndgrRr2wOrIh TJmsT1YOVa5w1kspeL9NZYCY57Bwl19W9g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzN8LbUdYCqtjjs6BzssDjE0BYtTznGJ2GIFIr2RfG7P9utwUDyY8EsZMZUgjQEbzNNDC77Lw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e34f:: with SMTP id n15mr25303247wrj.224.1615247258393; Mon, 08 Mar 2021 15:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.72.0.88] (h-1169.lbcfree.net. [185.193.85.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x8sm20838526wru.46.2021.03.08.15.47.37 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 08 Mar 2021 15:47:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: From: Pete Heist To: ECN-Sane Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2021 00:47:37 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.38.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ecn-sane] IETF 110 quick summary X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 23:47:40 -0000 Just responding to Dave's ask for a quick IETF 110 summary on ecn-sane, after one day. We presented the data on ECN at MAPRG (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-heist-tsvwg-ecn-deployment-observations/ ). It basically just showed that ECN is in use by endpoints (more as a proportion across paths than a proportion of flows), that RFC3168 AQMs do exist out there and are signaling, and that the ECN field can be misused. There weren't any questions, maybe because we were the last to present and were already short on time. We also applied that to L4S by first explaining that risk is the product of severity and prevalence, and tried to increase the awareness about the flow domination problem when L4S flows meet non-L4S flows (ECN or not) in a 3168 queue. Spreading this information seems to go slowly, as we're still hearing "oh really?", which leads me to believe 1) that people are tuning this debate out, and 2) it just takes a long time to comprehend, and to believe. It's still our stance that L4S can't be deployed due to its signalling design, or if it is, the end result is likely to be more bleaching and confusion with the DS field. There was a question I'd already heard before about why fq_codel is being deployed at an ISP, so I tried to cover that over in tsvwg. Basically, fq_codel is not ideal for this purpose, lacking host and subscriber fairness, but it's available and effective, so it's a good start. Wednesday's TSVWG session will be entirely devoted to L4S drafts.