From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com (mail-wm1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A514C3CB37 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2023 07:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-40b27726369so38187665e9.0 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2023 04:57:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heistp.net; s=google; t=1701176268; x=1701781068; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=mime-version:user-agent:autocrypt:date:to:from:subject:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3ZkKDnE+SJwiPhnD4E+qpTphrjhTWtsrXMxkfcsMOeo=; b=F75jWRLnAbKC/2XFI+55NGJCa6KT5Tulw7V31eDJizNTA4t0NHfn0qUjY67BmDY+54 E8PF1gFwewONdwoZBH1DZ9jAZo8lklnPumZ2p9dPSsUgxsUeFdAOakUH0SSuZGy8hLMu GrIzAzOXgoqll9eCGSzfMeJ0wzsegXGkL+Qlmu+/BQ0JtPH+I2YzAb6lVan9WTZDFTDd uNkHWCVRxKx+qD3P5Gd6zYEoS1TzTe5gK2kplcNzH+L59n8yWnTZZBzb9SQEY+Tb9NnR 5yVyQbpWrZntu3UNpSHYDqzPQhgMulBz9Tw52SdJl2MhdbdCzte+O4E9m1mRQvLRnmHC F2UQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1701176268; x=1701781068; h=mime-version:user-agent:autocrypt:date:to:from:subject:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3ZkKDnE+SJwiPhnD4E+qpTphrjhTWtsrXMxkfcsMOeo=; b=Hznp0pKZNoPCNwZbd9rOVjL6P/SOs/sivlsWKzac4rUjwW6o2ClLvAgmkVcsxpDGe7 ukwfurvng3Wt718G3uMFNJGihW0aTY3rsVrG9ik4ExlvqPVHl/vwskpp1Ijxvg71IVkb Zdh4oXStSI+RtgtxcI1p2XPAX6HBbH0rnQobkCizKnZOBV5SQg6s8hT+hm9QANWPfIoG 3PaY/c34gPX/goIMEmOhbOSDVYtyszt+NjB/URzDGM6KhYfBC5q4eIyCQ48wjVLciJ5d tzFrzZQOBFY1hfSvNTisumQ/OOD1xTW5UV3NZSO1yTO1BKs/3AZPY8qj6Z4igy/MvHg/ D/hw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzJMWXB9FiJ0bo+N3HleOs/r1yz2qJFpyYxv6+AXkA0EsioKily y/Xl2500MiqYF1I5hSj82Cb+di8ER/MuZKOcmTA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHkt4kzXc8T9iULgmJTgYZ8LFhnmFUeTTAui2MdVOytCncuJtOaH1EajEsEkWkqH5mMNRlYww== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1552:b0:40b:5075:c147 with SMTP id f18-20020a05600c155200b0040b5075c147mr27958wmg.8.1701176268154; Tue, 28 Nov 2023 04:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.72.0.88] (h-1169.lbcfree.net. [185.193.85.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p4-20020a05600c468400b003fc0505be19sm17706619wmo.37.2023.11.28.04.57.47 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 28 Nov 2023 04:57:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: From: Pete Heist To: ECN-Sane Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 13:57:46 +0100 Autocrypt: addr=pete@heistp.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=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 1CZjXqULawE1mC967Cj76ZbIhFm6j8oDDTOCVnSNO6j0cya0Q43nTym 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 AyPdA9/yne0J7YDZRgjmseajK5/uFBw/E+XwnwJQJyfBk9+nX0KB4nvp VKd6AoJj7BZ0JNS3x/gFiEXaLl7rdHyN4YETksRNjPu0z3go8th3uAiYkP+4ge+IhOWRh5N34pUsOIS55MubvxFHFejgoc4mt5etJj9fCvbzRxBMXhiVIqYwGK5JFMIMhpEI+Z3drl/4fiVxUdCKDbCZdgtZcuF/bjQR/eCOtj2nDvTwcqjJsLhwHtQha1T6Ud9D8ywQvm76OMBspT8WacE3R/PbTQxmcBRx0Tqcz52iQ+M7SPlQ7J8tgUL9HIPRaDB0fPy3dtiAN88RBC7zS+IwJgIDAK1ZKTjqvOkPwNwwZRjZyxnpjTJSacjCr9/t2iVnjXBz95naGvtPOf0WUEjfE= Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-LaOPff0xuEPUJwdvJiQa" User-Agent: Evolution 3.50.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ecn-sane] BBRv3 ecn_low per-route feature and the CE confusion X-BeenThere: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of explicit congestion notification's impact on the Internet List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 12:57:49 -0000 --=-LaOPff0xuEPUJwdvJiQa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding the per-route ecn_low feature in BBRv3: https://github.com/google/bbr/blob/v3/README.md#introducing-the-ecn_low-per= -route-feature When set, any incoming CE marks from an ecn_low flagged route will be treated as an L4S/RFC9331 CE, while CE marks from routes without that flag will be treated as a regular RFC3168 CE. Obviously this is problematic, as the two CE marks mean very different things, and outside of closed environments, there's no reliable way to know which type of CE you're receiving. The consequences of confusing them range from massive self-induced bloat, to driving competing traffic in the same queue down to minimum cwnd. The solution here is to just punt, so at least tests and demos can be made to work. This isn't a problem with BBR. The problem is, we've started an experiment [RFC9331] that redefines the meaning of CE in a way that's incompatible with existing RFC3168 middleboxes. This feature in BBR is just a reflection of that. CCA developers are now tasked with somehow deciding which type of CE they're seeing. Speaking of ecn "sane", does anyone else see this as not? :) and as a problem that needs solving? Pete --=-LaOPff0xuEPUJwdvJiQa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAABCAAdFiEEc6lSCRMow4RuRQyW6fxNO9SZO84FAmVl48oACgkQ6fxNO9SZ O84FGwv/ZFbi7pfOiHumVewR1WnHJYhwDCfOYjlLibAIGxdQK3OpoKB//0qFG6wv 5IJ+SX+5t7PH8FTyD7Da/z6oPFLYKhUyufniJ8CXlnoqTZDoMkay4jhPt8DspnHj aiAP6Vfoqwl6fCDeFyFINERKv/TsXEB/VC1edue3k0FUOtHhpT44lV8H6D4ZSMUk w9jUN4TfMXIWGdpyqRA58yrlKx96k2OluXG/5HOSDAejErWZzzR4X0Wsgl6XjnsU /9beDD5C3PSK3eXjDEUPICAZsJBsAwoqTTsXX+opL9lhIOIp8zDMjf7OOjv2Vq7g PugRX6EKK3p95qRDvAoR55+r1jlh48HXpPORw8DT/5mZx6nFbDQmXPnXZOUFhYQU 4sMTWdHRFONjtYNEWR6h2skr2IuyPRCSlFn0E+TRDpTsjwMOsbI8DHNfp9TA3h// pvkvdq1Q6UdmxapbtJuxTT6ucGRQHrVK+l6s7lolIubTLad2uTbFtDXxTvblBTI5 BI1mfqhS =5J2Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-LaOPff0xuEPUJwdvJiQa--