From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sender4-op-o11.zoho.com (sender4-op-o11.zoho.com [136.143.188.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75F3A3B29E for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 20:43:46 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1666658624; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=Z6bLJ37WtBol1FmtU/fLYGlyN/YmAkYqMy56fNcmJt3K8WtnNi78+JowAugaeG9PE2l2cxIEX26UqsxN2CWk02SEsEDRtnWrRkS5/4cydAWbO6KrkFtcvVv/O9/67SwNYVHj5X/WBAnqbs5H9MHna2PADUR3c7D/JLDuuYtK+8w= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1666658624; h=Content-Type:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=Hc4vrvLIgG6Cfrp2giwDBxYNVGpi0aHGQcLWtbXj64k=; b=Qyh46NvSDI8PRZJ4Uw87qisuoVCY/DHEAhCxiz72ecZ5d5VHjr52ijFQ3i1i7DZhJ41exDLq0+KXUee0yJzb97n9NHxFrzW0dtQcNl29SExJ2wzj2JCUiHyuKQgmEoFc/IbpLLkrOmYPkZQ08qEyf9VWpSsdV1vxhkT332NEvuI= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=phillywisper.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=mjs@phillywisper.net; dmarc=pass header.from= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=mail; d=phillywisper.net; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; b=iw2MdvEoluxTdq+y45zOSoLzDbmW1KSWMpPg3T6ZB46N+TC+/V295DAlNd8fweoIaO5umHL1SC/e DZOPOtBtPgg9d9gMjFopm2cFLjF7TM/gnM11Q0hxKaoqoN9C4f/c9oWU/XlLlgUUqFtk43/y9sLm PDWUic9MvFYrrEF4sTM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1666658624; s=mail; d=phillywisper.net; i=mjs@phillywisper.net; h=Date:Date:From:From:To:To:Cc:Cc:Message-Id:Message-Id:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Reply-To; bh=Hc4vrvLIgG6Cfrp2giwDBxYNVGpi0aHGQcLWtbXj64k=; b=QCYSiBWW8W+95cVcAIzwpXymPdv6oDHEBpRnLvh2Geiez/Vnw+5mAyTeARxYWFK9 PXpch6I72T1c0Yvylp7KsNLtGBrLhGeCu2ROmH2H3dWAljjWlwKsvRmJjRXdn3mJshG 3oPUa0DYum2DAsZ0e0zrjKuiH3bORNskV7kUz0wk= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1666658623134200.58280219519338; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 17:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 20:43:43 -0400 From: Mark Steckel To: "dan" Cc: "libreqos" , "dave taht" Message-Id: <1840c985e8a.10a591cd51731229.8068763504739272117@phillywisper.net> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5487180_890971800.1666658623114" Importance: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] Rain Fade (was Ack-filtering) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 00:43:46 -0000 ------=_Part_5487180_890971800.1666658623114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, Really appreciate the detailed breakdown of the various vendor gear. Very h= elpful. We started Airmax AC, dabbled with LTU but don't trust it enough to really = deploy. Waiting for things to shake out a bit before we build out broadcast= on a new major site. (There is 200 units in the building and people are sw= itching from Comcast to us in droves, so can wait on the broadcast equipmen= t.) Have deployed some of the gen 1 Wave APs using AF50-LR as CPEs. Not as big = a fan as you yet. Finally received a couple of the new gen2 Wave APs. plani= ng to deploy them in the next couple of weeks along with Wave CPEs. Cautiou= sly optimisitc. My biggest concern about the Wave APs is the current limit of 16 clients. H= opefully Ubnt will increase this to 32, other wise will have to think about= a lot more micro-pops. Any insight into Ubnt's new Airmax AX line? We have 3.3 km AF11 link that has been rock solid for 3 years. Signal hover= s around -35 dBm. This past May, an insane storm* just massively dumped rai= n for 8 minutes. Never seen anything like it. The rain caused 34 dBm of fad= e. even so, the link stayed up and the signal recovered quickly. A typical = heavy storm usually causes only about 5 dBm of fade.=C2=A0 Mark * Mid-Atlantic coast ---- On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:25:10 -0400 dan via LibreQoS wrote --- How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people trying to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60 with *really good antennas* into the office market... =20 big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me. I have extensive testing with almost every gear out there. 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain.=C2=A0 Longest shot on network ri= ght now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid 300Mbps= across this with zero fade.=C2=A0 Actually gets a tiny bit better in the r= ain, ie it is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise so it's a mi= nor improvement.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps.=C2=A0 And a 10 = miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional in 80= Mhz.=C2=A0 No rain fade.=C2=A0 Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in differen= t distances.=C2=A0 We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie LTU AP= <> LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP.=C2=A0 Works well enough though this product = is susceptible=C2=A0to noise more than any other we use. Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to node o= r small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid CPE.= =C2=A0 Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook with= nperf UDP. Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better.=C2=A0 AF 'LR' and 'XR' = rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down too much to be usable= .=C2=A0 Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio. Ubiquiti Wave, legit AP<>CPE out 2km and never fails over.=C2=A0 4km w/ wif= i6 failover.=C2=A0 Fantastic product... probably the one to beat. Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay.=C2=A0 Ca= n get a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you.=C2=A0 The= se have 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on the small= and 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failover= . Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to noticably= =C2=A0fade.=C2=A0 MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal ducting 'tur= ning' the beam off aim. 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands.=C2=A0 channels 1-4 are short r= ange, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links stay up.=C2=A0 c= hannels 5,6 are 2-3x longer.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really play= ing in this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower out= put power so it's 'ok'.=C2=A0 Tachyon coming into this space as well, but u= nproven and AFAIK zero beta deployments. 5Ghz <=3D200M service plans today with a well built network and good AP/Ant= enna choices, <=3D500Mbps with WiFi6 tech.=C2=A0 technically a bit more, bu= t with reasonable ratios this is about right 6Ghz <=3D900Mbps plans on live beta users.=C2=A0 OFDMA+MUMIMO is really del= ivering here. 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice that with up= coming channel bonding.=C2=A0 base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, long 1= 0Gbps port(s).=C2=A0 Build out model here is for 'In the rain' so no effect= ive fade if built right.=C2=A0 if built wrong, fade to death. 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave.=C2=A0 <=3D800Mbps.=C2=A0 Technically a bit= more but I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it.=C2=A0 I can = however get 2 customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP.=C2=A0 Plan with= built in fade and intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Accepta= ble in Montana. =C2=A0 _______________________________________________ LibreQoS mailing list mailto:LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos ------=_Part_5487180_890971800.1666658623114 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Dan,

Really appreciate= the detailed breakdown of the various vendor gear. Very helpful.
=

We started Airmax AC, dabbled with LTU but don't trust = it enough to really deploy. Waiting for things to shake out a bit before we= build out broadcast on a new major site. (There is 200 units in the buildi= ng and people are switching from Comcast to us in droves, so can wait on th= e broadcast equipment.)

Have deployed some of = the gen 1 Wave APs using AF50-LR as CPEs. Not as big a fan as you yet. Fina= lly received a couple of the new gen2 Wave APs. planing to deploy them in t= he next couple of weeks along with Wave CPEs. Cautiously optimisitc.

My biggest concern about the Wave APs is the current= limit of 16 clients. Hopefully Ubnt will increase this to 32, other wise w= ill have to think about a lot more micro-pops.

Any insight into Ubnt's new Airmax AX line?

We ha= ve 3.3 km AF11 link that has been rock solid for 3 years. Signal hovers aro= und -35 dBm. This past May, an insane storm* just massively dumped rain for= 8 minutes. Never seen anything like it. The rain caused 34 dBm of fade. ev= en so, the link stayed up and the signal recovered quickly. A typical heavy= storm usually causes only about 5 dBm of fade. 

Mark


* Mid-Atlantic coa= st



---- On Mon, 24= Oct 2022 19:25:10 -0400 dan via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat= .net> wrote ---


<= /div>



How bad are y'al= l's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and
bands? in 08, in nic= a, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to
nothin at 5ghz when it r= ained, and I just laughed at the people trying
to deploy 60ghz - but ti= mes change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60
with *really good antennas= * into the office market...

big question to ask when so busy, plea= se ignore me.


I have extensive test= ing with almost every gear out there.

5Ghz, no appreciable fade in s= now or rain.  Longest shot on network right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD = 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid 300Mbps across this with zero fade.&n= bsp; Actually gets a tiny bit better in the rain, ie it is technically fadi= ng a bit but so is all the noise so it's a minor improvement.  
I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps.  And= a 10 miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional= in 80Mhz.  No rain fade.  Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in di= fferent distances.  We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie = LTU AP <> LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP.  Works well enough though t= his product is susceptible to noise more than any other we use.
Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to node = or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid CPE.=   Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook with= nperf UDP.

Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better= .  AF 'LR' and 'XR' rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're d= own too much to be usable.  Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio.

U= biquiti Wave, legit AP<>CPE out 2km and never fails over.  4km w= / wifi6 failover.  Fantastic product... probably the one to beat.
<= br>Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay. = Can get a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you.  = These have 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on the sm= all and 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failo= ver.

Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going t= o noticably fade.  MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal d= ucting 'turning' the beam off aim.

60Ghz should be considered 2 sepa= rate bands.  channels 1-4 are short range, <1km in PTP, <300m in= PtMP if you want to have links stay up.  channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer= .  Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really playing in this space right now= , mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower output power so it's 'ok'.&nbs= p; Tachyon coming into this space as well, but unproven and AFAIK zero beta= deployments.

5Ghz <=3D200M service plans today with a well built= network and good AP/Antenna choices, <=3D500Mbps with WiFi6 tech. = technically a bit more, but with reasonable ratios this is about right
= 6Ghz <=3D900Mbps plans on live beta users.  OFDMA+MUMIMO is really = delivering here.
60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh= , twice that with upcoming channel bonding.  base CPE 1Gbps port, mid = 2.5gbps port, long 10Gbps port(s).  Build out model here is for 'In th= e rain' so no effective fade if built right.  if built wrong, fade to = death.
60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave.  <=3D800Mbps.  Tech= nically a bit more but I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it.=   I can however get 2 customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP.&nb= sp; Plan with built in fade and intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km.  =  Acceptable in Montana.



 
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