From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sender4-op-o11.zoho.com (sender4-op-o11.zoho.com [136.143.188.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E1B43B29D for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 22:29:01 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1666751338; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=RZmF33cFcOfdYiJEec6sQJ5cxA8ZXBPGR9cMQn4l2WiDQ4/afCozW02ulGOEr4VDLRI2YBb+2DxD345LH5BOgLl3dAZcFIVoWtg6BRSajZ2yZ7uZ7Py1QEUBC0eBQRJJOYT069xd1M6Q+8MYs71PcXtj57uhRPuUv0B9PKqA40I= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1666751338; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=91VMqiAZ/8oxx1KrK6ewYhsBZRsMyy4epD945L4jYkI=; b=DHwrQKLFxC/K0STAk8a9YM6VbTSFV/cpzQ65WY3Gga2O4YONEsQnzptZGFcBrZHZgjzfH4ztxKhtRFo7SOFX8tKSdUBFznL3m+AIdocb8YZJZJv0rJ73iCgL36aPk0i/fwSdtydDDCsfZceIhdJvinfQNX06BOSVEBZao+fg3H8= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=phillywisper.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=mjs@phillywisper.net; dmarc=pass header.from= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=mail; d=phillywisper.net; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; b=aT0l9a01IoAkxnakjN5G+YD1cS+KzFsjGR8w/4GZwjk+67ZHVsjjdL8RNsv9KX9N17gI16mwJ8fV kvtIjoPpfgAdzash09lWt1iLOiW6OuCHNVZ+cjp/4B3vnwJRN3QiCCIIdmnk9tlExr3aJupFDDB/ PcuWKR3XVW+HkXXCb0s= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1666751338; s=mail; d=phillywisper.net; i=mjs@phillywisper.net; h=Date:Date:From:From:To:To:Cc:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:Reply-To; bh=91VMqiAZ/8oxx1KrK6ewYhsBZRsMyy4epD945L4jYkI=; b=fTieoTpLs7Q1N99ntF55hEbKbco/TGac8I1DFRxpmzYs51BtG22xO8WxS4IM067p hrqg/wuxUKFuVQWNgbCFDZPXmC8StGVqg1Fo35qUoHka2hAT31aFPWQTS6i3ETx6+fS NthvJC8SJiCxGVl0wyzkA8iIOqYjaX1i5nT54SwQ= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1666751336420182.99757478961044; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 19:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 22:28:56 -0400 From: Mark Steckel To: "dan" Cc: "libreqos" Message-ID: <184121f0fd2.bb94d86e2041327.1777407868200201335@phillywisper.net> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Importance: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] 10G radios Was: Rain Fade (was Ack-filtering) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 02:29:01 -0000 Dan, ---- On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 22:22:04 -0400 dan via LibreQoS wrote --- >=20 > As far as FSO, interesting but 80Ghz is basically better in every way an= d those radios are coming down in price pretty quickly.=C2=A0 =C2=A010Gbps = FDX link on siklu 8010 is under $6k if you have a good rep.=C2=A0 Do you have any experience with Aviat or other 80 GHz radios? Planning to p= urchase some links in the next few months and I'm look for unbiased info. Thanks Mark > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:57 AM Dave Taht dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 4:25 PM dan dandenson@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and > >> bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to > >> nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people tryi= ng > >> to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60 > >> with *really good antennas* into the office market... > >> > >> big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me. > >> > > > > I have extensive testing with almost every gear out there. > > > > 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain.=C2=A0 Longest shot on netw= ork right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid 3= 00Mbps across this with zero fade.=C2=A0 Actually gets a tiny bit better in= the rain, ie it is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise so it'= s a minor improvement. > > > > I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps.=C2=A0 And= a 10 miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional= in 80Mhz.=C2=A0 No rain fade.=C2=A0 Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in di= fferent distances.=C2=A0 We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie = LTU AP LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP.=C2=A0 Works well enough though this prod= uct is susceptible to noise more than any other we use. > > > > Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to = node or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid= CPE.=C2=A0 Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook= with nperf UDP. > > > > Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better.=C2=A0 AF 'LR' and= 'XR' rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down too much to be = usable.=C2=A0 Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio. > > > > Ubiquiti Wave, legit APCPE out 2km and never fails over.=C2=A0 4km w/= wifi6 failover.=C2=A0 Fantastic product... probably the one to beat. > > > > Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay.=C2= =A0 Can get a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you.=C2= =A0 These have 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on th= e small and 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz f= ailover. > > > > Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to noti= cably fade.=C2=A0 MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal ducting 'tur= ning' the beam off aim. > > > > 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands.=C2=A0 channels 1-4 are s= hort range, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links stay up.= =C2=A0 channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, only ubiquiti rea= lly playing in this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a l= ower output power so it's 'ok'.=C2=A0 Tachyon coming into this space as wel= l, but unproven and AFAIK zero beta deployments. > > > > 5Ghz <=3D200M service plans today with a well built network and good = AP/Antenna choices, <=3D500Mbps with WiFi6 tech.=C2=A0 technically a bit mo= re, but with reasonable ratios this is about right > > 6Ghz <=3D900Mbps plans on live beta users.=C2=A0 OFDMA+MUMIMO is real= ly delivering here. > > 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice that w= ith upcoming channel bonding.=C2=A0 base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, = long 10Gbps port(s).=C2=A0 Build out model here is for 'In the rain' so no = effective fade if built right.=C2=A0 if built wrong, fade to death. > > 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave.=C2=A0 <=3D800Mbps.=C2=A0 Technically= a bit more but I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it.=C2=A0 = I can however get 2 customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP.=C2=A0 Pla= n with built in fade and intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km.=C2=A0 =C2=A0A= cceptable in Montana. > =20 > Thx for such a deep dive! How about Tarana? > =20 > How does "Terragraph" derived tech tie back into shipping products? > =20 > I've been involved with a bunch of other highly speculative > technologies over the years. > =20 > # Free space optics > =20 > Koruza showed promise at one point: http://www.koruza.net/ > =20 > Google's been trying to line up folk for this for a while: > =20 > https://x.company/projects/taara/ > =20 > # Radios > =20 > ... I appreciate the data on all these radios, their relative > performance and range. This stuff needs to=C2=A0 end up in > a wiki chart somewhere. ? > ... but it's not knowing the buffering on em that bugs me the most. :/ > Got all kinds of measurement tools for that > =20 > crusader, in particular, is coming along. > packet caps from iperf sessions... > flent to a raspi on the other side of the link... > =20 > # Still a hardware guy at heart > =20 > Back in 2013 I had thought hard about entering the market for radios > in the 11ghz (and wispa just freed up a lot of space in the 10? or 12? > band for future use) licensed spectrums, but I couldn't stomach > working with qualcomm again. I have some hope a mediatek might get > into that, and I could work with them. > =20 > anyone got devices that can use channel 172 yet? That just got freed up= too. > =20 > > > > > > > =20 > =20 > =20 > --=20 > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366= 665607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > LibreQoS mailing list > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >=20